Ep. 4 | "Hammering" Through The Role Professional Associations Play In The Tax Industry
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John Tripolsky:Hey, everybody, and welcome back to the Mr. R Show here presented by the Monthly Recurring Revenue Institute. I'm John Topolsky from the MRRI team with my cohost, who obviously, you know, you'll hear from him here soon as we jump into it. But our guest for today is Jamie Hammer. So Jamie is actually the current president of the NATP.
John Tripolsky:So if you're not familiar with what NATP is, for one, you should be. If you're not a member or if you never heard of them, you should be. That's a National Association of Tax Professionals. Jamie actually brings to the table over about twenty years or so, really operating in the world that y'all live in. So dealing with individuals, businesses, mistake tax, prep services, representation of audits, tax controversy cases, you name it.
John Tripolsky:She's done it. She is from over in New Jersey. So she's a Jersey gal. I believe it's Cherry Hill where she is from. But you're gonna hear a great story from her, really how she got into the industry, how she got connected with NATP.
John Tripolsky:Give us really a rundown not just of NATP as the organization, but just organizations as a whole within the tax industry. Really, what they do is first for supporting professionals that operate in the industry and, really, those that are looking to get into it too. Jamie's gonna give us some great insight, some great suggestions, recommendations. It's always great to hear from somebody who has been in the industry for such a long time, not too long ago. She's still young.
John Tripolsky:She's been in the industry for a while, so she brings the experience, but then also from her position within NATP, which again is a national organization. So we look forward to it, but let's stop wasting time, and let's jump into the show. Hey, everybody. Welcome back to the mister r show brought to you by
John Tripolsky:the Monthly Recurring Revenue Institute. I am the cohost of this podcast. You can't get rid of me that easy. John Topolsky, sitting to my left this time, sometimes on my right, sometimes across from me. Chris Pacquero.
Chris Picciurro:How are we, sir? Yes. I'm on your side of the bed right now. Oh, I'll
John Tripolsky:take him. I'm usually on your right. I won't kick you off yet. Hey. It'll be fine.
Chris Picciurro:That'll be fine.
Jaimee Hammer:Thank
John Tripolsky:you. So we have a special episode as always. I always say everything's great. Everything's the best. That's because Chris is on it with me.
John Tripolsky:If it was me, you would want nothing to do with this. I promise you that. I guarantee you that. However, we are live. Well, post live.
John Tripolsky:So we were live when you hear this at Taxposium in San Antonio. So I'm from Michigan. Chris from Tennessee. It's a little hot here. It's warm.
John Tripolsky:It's you're wearing
Chris Picciurro:a sweatshirt walking the streets of 10 Saint Etienne's own matching.
John Tripolsky:Right? Like, we're both wearing teal. And it was unplanned. We both we both come out of the hotel rooms wearing the exact same color. It was kinda well, close enough.
Chris Picciurro:It was kinda creepy. But enough about us. Nobody's Exactly. Listen to us. They hear us every episode.
Chris Picciurro:They get tired of us. So I'm excited about this episode. You know, I think Introduce your time.
John Tripolsky:Introduce your time.
Chris Picciurro:And, I'm gonna
John Tripolsky:shut up now. I'm gonna let you guys run with it because here at Taxposium, I literally am the dumbest person in the room. You know, they always say hang out with smarter, better looking people than yourself. I think
Chris Picciurro:I've accomplished that. You did. You did. You're you're out. This it's smarter.
Chris Picciurro:I'll give you smarter. But let it run. You're not gonna be jumping out of any I'll be your cohost today. Well, we are excited. We are live at NATP's Tax posium twenty twenty three San Antonio, Texas.
Chris Picciurro:We are honored, to be joined by Jamie Hammer. Hello. How are you? I'm great. And, Jamie, if you if you should know this, but if you don't, she's the president of the national board of directors for the NATP, and we are really honored to have her here, not only just talk about some of her background, but also the industry in general, talk about the the neat things going on in the tax world, but also some of the challenges we have as practitioners.
Chris Picciurro:The cool thing about Jamie is she has her own private practice as well and also serves as president. And we're honored to have her, and we, you know, we only had to peel off half our travel budget to get her in here, John. Hey.
John Tripolsky:Hey. It's alright. It's coming out of your half. I I took the other half.
Chris Picciurro:Alright. Alright. Jamie, welcome. Thanks for thanks for being here.
Jaimee Hammer:Absolutely.
Chris Picciurro:Tell us a little bit about just your your background and, about yourself.
Jaimee Hammer:Well, I would consider that I'm about halfway through my illustrious career as a tax professional. It started in a little bit of a, not typical fashion. Graduated undergraduate college, never ever considering taxation as a career path. Instead, I was gonna go to Manhattan big city, work in business. Mhmm.
Jaimee Hammer:I was being courted by consulting firms, and then I said, no. Gotta follow my dreams, and I'm going to Atlantic City, and I'm gonna be a singer. Not what you expected. Right? And I did.
Jaimee Hammer:And I went to Atlantic City, and I got a actually a steady job as a singer within two months of graduating college.
John Tripolsky:Wow.
Jaimee Hammer:But I did have a love for math. And I went to family friend, and I said, guess what? I got hired by this band. I'm gonna work all the time regularly just about every weekend, but they did let me know they're gonna pay me on a $10.99. I don't know what that means.
Jaimee Hammer:They also told me that there's a slow, like, dead period of the year for entertainment, and that is the first quarter of the year. January, February, March is just a slower time for gigs. So I went to that family friend who was a tax professional, and I said, what does this mean? And she said, well, you started as a math major in college. You wanna understand what this means for your own tax returns.
Jaimee Hammer:You know you have to file a tax return. Right, Jamie? So she said, go learn taxes, and I'm gonna hire you. And you're gonna have that seasonal job to fill in your dead zone of tax, and you're gonna understand your own tax return. And that is what led me back to learn how to do taxes.
Jaimee Hammer:This was last century, the very, very end of last century, but factually last century. And I started my tax professional career literally the same time I started, like, entertainment career as a singer.
Chris Picciurro:The and you know what? The unfortunate thing, John, and I know this is the first thing you thought of. Since Jamie was, getting a ten ninety nine, she didn't qualify for the $1.99 a deduction.
Jaimee Hammer:Didn't exist yet.
Chris Picciurro:Exactly. So that's interesting. I thought they
John Tripolsky:were See, I was more stuck in the fact that she's a singer.
Chris Picciurro:Are you gonna ask her to sing?
John Tripolsky:You know, I was gonna lie and say today's my birthday, and say sing I'm doing No. Sing it. Sing a tune. Do you wanna sing something for us? I'm talking No.
John Tripolsky:By the way.
Jaimee Hammer:Yeah. Well, yeah. Good. I'd love to hear Chris sing.
Chris Picciurro:No. No. No. No. No.
Chris Picciurro:No. No. No. Margarito.
John Tripolsky:No. Yeah. The zitarios' mics are fragile. They can break when they hear things like that. We do not want that.
John Tripolsky:So but that's a that's a really cool story because it's not your your traditional, you know, I I went to Ira. I graduated. I got an internship. I got a real job, and then I started my own business. Right?
John Tripolsky:So it's an interesting path. I found
Chris Picciurro:a lot of the best tax professionals are people that unintentionally became a tax professional. There was a second career or they were a teacher for a while, and they have life experience. And and think about all that experience of performing on stage, live audiences, and but you also have the competency of math. I thought you're gonna tell us they were gonna pay you with saltwater taffy before you said $10.99, but that's alright.
Jaimee Hammer:I'm from New Jersey. Saltwater taffy is easy. It's very accessible there. So that wouldn't have cut it for me.
Chris Picciurro:And and you're so now you have your own practice, I believe. Yeah. Could tell us about that. And do you have a niche or a certain avatar you like to work with?
Jaimee Hammer:Well, you know, some of the most fun parts of having that kind of dual career for such a long time was really being intermixed into the entertainment community and also taxation. Mhmm. And I was a performer in Atlantic City quite a bit. Mhmm. And I got to know a lot of the guys and girls down there.
Jaimee Hammer:So I I did have a niche with artists because they felt really misunderstood by by an accountant type personality. Right? So I kinda could relate to them. Mhmm. But it was always interesting when I would run into a client or a colleague in entertainment in the vice versa field.
Jaimee Hammer:If I'm singing and then a client was like, wait a minute. I know you. We may you're my accountant. What is happening here? But that was my niche to really relate to artists and help them understand understand their paperwork side of it, their responsibilities, and what it means to perhaps be paid on that $10.99, which is not your standard way of being paid as an employee.
Jaimee Hammer:Right?
Chris Picciurro:Well, exactly. I mean, it's challenging for people that are so artistic and creative to think that way. Now we have some apps and some other things that they can hopefully track their expenses. Of course, I'm sure all your clients have perfect mileage logs and seat capture.
Jaimee Hammer:That's right.
Chris Picciurro:We're the ones stuck with the sometimes not so perfect. But and do you still work with a lot of musicians and performing artists?
Jaimee Hammer:I do. So, I officially retired from the entertainment world at the end of twenty seventeen, but they're still my close friends and many clients. So, yeah, I do have a good number. But it really expanded so it didn't have to just be music because all of a sudden, I've got photographers or Mhmm. In the fine arts, a painter because they all felt they had that creative mind not understanding the detail needed and how to be meticulous about your records.
Jaimee Hammer:Right?
Chris Picciurro:We say in the MRR Institute, let your best client pick your next client. Yeah. That sounds like exactly what you did. You had a certain creative type person that trusts you, but you had a competency with numbers and just kinda help them out. And I'm sure they talk you know, talk shop all the time.
Jaimee Hammer:Absolutely. I get to catch up on the on the gossip. But, you know, of course, your your best clients are also your most challenging clients too. It's not an easy niche to have. They you know, some of them profess their brains don't work that way.
Jaimee Hammer:So it's a challenge and you become a teacher and social worker and all the things in between. And that's the beauty of the nature of being a tax
Chris Picciurro:tax professional. Especially, I mean, South Jersey, your border, you probably have dealings with multi state taxation. I mean, there's a lot going on there between New Jersey, New York, obviously, Pennsylvania. And so you might have performers that, I mean, ten ninety nine, you know, take gigs elsewhere and and you've got those type of challenges.
Jaimee Hammer:One of my first questions, you know, and I and I always relate it back to, you know, those new news articles about the athletes who play one baseball game in every state. Right? You know what that means. Right? They're like, no.
Jaimee Hammer:I don't know what that means. Mhmm. That's not me. No. I don't cross the bridge.
Jaimee Hammer:What are you talking about?
Chris Picciurro:Exactly. I mean, it's now do you have anything that you do for them as far as, like, what how do you what's your best communication tool with your clients? I mean, do you have, like, a any type of social media or any type of newsletter or how do you how communicate something to
Jaimee Hammer:the masses? So I try to create templates a lot for them to make it really practical for them to try to see where they fit in Right. With leeway and saying that you don't fit in there, then create your own. Right? Mhmm.
Jaimee Hammer:I don't do do a lot of social media because I'm pretty much at capacity in my business. I'm a solo practitioner. Okay. No support currently. Mhmm.
Jaimee Hammer:So really don't look to advertise and expand. Mhmm. So and that's actually a challenge too. It's a good problem to have Right. But it's still a problem.
Jaimee Hammer:Right. So I do keep in touch with them and email and taking advantage of as much technology as I can and advancing my own knowledge to help them utilize it. And I think that's the way to go for my practice, but we're also different.
Chris Picciurro:Yeah. Last question about this, Prank. Because then do you offer other services than tax prep? And have you seen any of your performers, since they travel a lot, house hack or maybe buy a property and they live in it, and then they rent it out short term when they're out of town? Have you had any of those type of challenges?
Jaimee Hammer:A little bit. Short. Now for the most part, because I don't have the celebrities. Mhmm. I deal with the real artists who in the ground.
Jaimee Hammer:Right? The people on the ground. Mhmm. So they're not the wealthiest people out there. Mhmm.
Jaimee Hammer:So they may not have the funds or the the credit background to do that, but a little bit of that where they establish themselves just to sublet out.
Chris Picciurro:Mhmm.
Jaimee Hammer:Especially, like, the background guys playing the pits or, you know, traveling with the big artists. So a little bit of that. But for the most part, they don't they're not doing that. My five.
Chris Picciurro:Right. No. I Woody, you know, in Nashville, my wife is a special education teacher, and many of the younger folks that moved to the area are actually aspiring musicians, but they might have a teaching license or they're doing something au pair or day you know, it's just interesting getting their to try to get that full time musician thing going, but it's also challenging for mobility. And, you know, they may or may not get paid tips of cash and, you know, you just never know. Well, we are a taxposium as we know.
Chris Picciurro:You have a successful practice. Right? You're at capacity. You're engaging. But what what spurred you to get involved with with NATP?
Jaimee Hammer:So it's a it's a fun story. So my path to associations in general, young practitioner, practitioner working for someone else as many of us start out working for someone else. I went to the IRS tax forums, and I was in the vendor exhibit Hall in Atlantic City. And a colleague was introducing me to another association and saying, oh, but you'll catch her down the street at the casino tonight. Challenge.
Jaimee Hammer:So the challenge and the he said, I want you to sing a song right now in front of all the vendors in the middle of this big exhibit hall and I did. But before I did, I said, well, what's in it for me? And he said, a membership. So that was my entry. Wow.
Jaimee Hammer:Believe it or not, it's a true story. That was my entry into professional association tax professional association. And I acquired my membership, my one year membership. And I wasn't super happy with that association, and it led me to NATP in the very next year. Oh.
Jaimee Hammer:That's how I got there.
John Tripolsky:I've heard a lot of fun stories how you get involved in crypto. Never that one either. That's pretty good.
Chris Picciurro:This is never on the app. Right? No. I I'd sing a song. It's, you know, membership 200.
Chris Picciurro:Well, right. Okay. The the because not everyone can sing like her. They don't wanna hear us.
John Tripolsky:Chris. Inspiring. He has been.
Jaimee Hammer:Karaoke is a fun time.
Chris Picciurro:It is. I I quit doing karaoke when I got to Nashville because there's actually, like, real people out there doing it, not in Detroit. So do you for other tax professionals just getting started or even if they've been in the business for a while, why shouldn't what are, like, some of the best benefits of association that you feel other than, like, events like this, but yeah. What are some of the things you think they should consider?
Jaimee Hammer:Well, the obvious thing to consider and and the benefit that's just screaming all over the place is the education. Because no one can be a successful, excellent practitioner without current education, expansive education, refreshing, all the things are changing all the time, but there's so much more and you don't know it until you experience it. So my experience was the community of tax professionals. So as soon as I got into association, not a shy person, I did make conversation from day one of education, and I met other practitioners.
Chris Picciurro:Mhmm.
Jaimee Hammer:And it really led me to find out their story as I've told you mine. How did you get into it? What's your practice like? What do you see in your office? And all of a sudden, I had a network.
Jaimee Hammer:And all of a sudden, I was exchanging phone numbers with other practitioners and felt I now had the ability to call someone who does what I do, who relates to me to ask when I had a challenging thing that came up. And even better, I now as a part of this association that had a research department, that had publications with cutting edge information. And all of a sudden, I had this toolbox available to me that I didn't even realize was there as a younger kind of ignorant professional not knowing what was available.
Chris Picciurro:I think a lot of the the a lot of the the people entering the profession or maybe even twenty, twenty five years ago, we had a lot of general practitioners, and now people are really specializing in different things. And what I like is is that you can learn things from like, there's certain weakness. Like, employee stock option plans, I I've been doing this for a long time. I still get confused. I I so I'm one of the things we're specifically looking here at Taxposium is someone to that we can bounce things off of when I see these ESOP plans.
Chris Picciurro:So I'm just like, oh, no. And, so everyone has their strengths and weaknesses. So now as far as the association, obviously, those interpersonal relationships, networking, does the association do any type of advocacy for the profession or keep us updated on any of the laws? I know through education, like
Jaimee Hammer:I'm so glad you asked.
Chris Picciurro:Yeah. No. Because all of these is yeah. I'd love to hear about that.
Jaimee Hammer:Well, you know, we consider ourselves the one place that is inclusive of all professionals, And we want to be the voice of all the tax professionals. We are continuously surveying our members to find out what they need, what they think, what they want, and maintain that position as we foster relationships with those who might be able to help us in our, you know, role in that. So we, you know, we're very clear on wanting competency in our profession and regulation of tax professionals. And that comes straight from our membership.
Chris Picciurro:Mhmm.
Jaimee Hammer:And that comes from those who are enrolled, unenrolled, all levels. We want that because it consistently supports both both our industry, our tax professionals, and the taxpayers we serve because we want them to get good help. And we want our professionals, our members to maintain that, reputation of being the ones that the taxpayer can go to. So we very clearly advocate for the position that our members and the tax professional community supports.
Chris Picciurro:A lot of people that listen to this podcast are members of NATP, but they're also members of either the NAEA or the AICPA. Excuse me. One thing I really like is that this is very inclusive. And can you tell us a little bit about some of NATP's research support because I've used it, and I need it sometimes, for its members?
Jaimee Hammer:Well, we have had a a very illustrious research department for years. It's been one of the things that have brought members into our association from the very beginning. My own, relationship with NATP was one of the things that brought me in. You know, you join NATP, you get that research question and it goes from there. So So it's been something we've always bragged about, but it is, developing as our whole culture in this profession is developing.
Jaimee Hammer:And I'm excited as I think all of our membership is excited to see what tools are out there to advance what we can offer in research. And we understand that there are a lot of ways to research for tax professionals. And as technology, social media, there's a lot of options out there. So we are not ignorant to that, and we want to incorporate everything available and do whatever is needed to support our members again.
Chris Picciurro:Yeah. I mean, a huge value membership value add is the ability because you gotta think about this. There are a lot of practitioners that are local or smaller practices, and we don't have research departments. So we need to rely on the association to be a kind of our back office or our research department if we need it because not everyone knows every no one knows everything, really.
John Tripolsky:So, was it where the quote used to say, the man who says or thinks he knows everything knows nothing. So, yes, Strifff, build a
Chris Picciurro:good team behind it. So we talked about your, you know, coming into this profession, singing, talked about the NETP a little bit, but we wanna know about what how you feel about the tax practice, tax and accounting practice in general. Just The industry? The industry. And what are some of the main challenges that the tax preparation industry faces right now in your opinion?
Jaimee Hammer:Okay. Well, we're not here for twenty four hours. I know. There are so many things that we could get into. The very obvious is the ever changing laws.
Jaimee Hammer:Right? Mhmm. Keeping up to date and sometimes these laws change on a day to day. Sometimes they change even in the old tax season. Sometimes the law change is retroactive.
Jaimee Hammer:So we all have to pivot, adapt, be knowledgeable, be confident in that knowledge for our practitioners, and that is certainly a challenge. Another challenge, work life balance with the deadlines, tight deadlines, the deadlines that face maybe the entire American public on the same exact deadline. Fair? Not fair? I mean, we can't speak to that.
Jaimee Hammer:But, you know, taking care of ourselves, and that's become even more apparent post COVID, I'd say. Lesson. COVID society when we're really learning to hopefully take care of ourselves that much better. Mhmm. But with those challenges, there's so always the other side of it, the benefits of that.
Jaimee Hammer:I would say, also the post COVID culture would be the challenges of the workforce and employment and what's expected and finding good help and what are they looking for and what are we looking for and that support that you might need and having the trust in someone else. And, you know, so that's another challenge. Advancing technology, it can be wonderful. It can be intimidating. It can be new things to learn.
Jaimee Hammer:And it also brings in the threats of security and the bad actors that are trying to get into your office through all those advancements. So like I said, I could talk for twenty four hours.
Chris Picciurro:No. We love this. You hit on a bunch of great points. I mean, can you imagine, John? You're you're a little quiet this podcast, which is kinda nice, actually.
John Tripolsky:I'm intimidated. Like I said, you guys are so smart.
Chris Picciurro:So can you imagine, John, you're you're driving your big truck, your big pickup truck, the Gashog, and the speed limit says 45, and you cruise through at at 46, and, you get pulled over. No. You don't get pulled over. Actually, you just speed right through. Okay?
Chris Picciurro:Two days later, a police officer shows up at your door and gives you a ticket for 10 over and says, you know, if, that speed limit changed to 35 miles an hour and actually changed a month ago. Well, it was 45 when I drove by it, and that's exactly what Jamie's referring to. Mhmm. Post I mean, these these tax provisions that change that are retroactive, one major one that occurred recently through the pandemic was the taxing on unemployment benefits. And the problem the challenge is is a lot of taxpayers that receive unemployment benefits are exactly the ones that maybe don't have the resources to pay for amended tax returns, and now you've put the tax professionals in a tough spot.
Chris Picciurro:Because the the return was prepared properly based on the laws at the time, and now they've changed. Now then when I thought the IRS was supposed to go back and they said, don't amend the returns and they'll send them the money, but I'm just trying to come up with an example, in other words.
Jaimee Hammer:It's a great example. It's one of the best examples of of current time over the last five years. And then, you know, another challenge is we're as professionals, we're expected to understand that federal law, but also our states. And as you mentioned earlier, I'm in an area where I deal with a couple states. Right?
Jaimee Hammer:So maybe one state taxes unemployment, and that's no big deal. This is a nonissue. The net or excuse me. One state does not tax unemployment, so it's a nonissue, and the one right next door does. And what about we're in the middle of a pandemic.
Jaimee Hammer:Do they remember that they received unemployment? Did that state suddenly go paperless and they're not sending out their ten ninety nine gs anymore? Did they go and pull that? Do we know? Just do we are we gonna file the married filing jointly?
Jaimee Hammer:Are we gonna separate them so that they each can meet that income threshold? And that, that that was a $10,200 exclusion. Right? Mhmm. So what if they had 10,180?
Jaimee Hammer:Is it or to 10,210? Is that fair? No. It's not fair. Mhmm.
Jaimee Hammer:It's never fair. It's just law, and it's retroactive. So, yes, IRS said don't amend those returns. We'll send you the money. Right?
Jaimee Hammer:So all of our clients were like, sure. Jamie, we'll just sit here and wait. That sounds like a great idea.
Chris Picciurro:Exactly. Exactly. The people that need it. That's the challenge too. You brought up a great point on state conformity.
Chris Picciurro:Well, I wanna tie it back in NATP, especially so my personal niche is real estate, and a lot of our clients use the bonus depreciation and cost segregation, but states treat that differently, and that's challenging for people. So we have so with NATP, obviously, can you talk with just a little bit about maybe some of the local opportunities, chapters available? Because we're here at Taxposium. It's great because you get people from all over the country. But, yeah, what are what if someone's in Boise, Idaho right now, do we have any listeners in Boise?
Chris Picciurro:I don't know. You could run some. Yeah. No.
John Tripolsky:Yeah. Well, look at the analytics.
Chris Picciurro:But let's say they're in Boise, Idaho saying, man, I should've went to the Taxposium. What what type of local opportunities are available?
Jaimee Hammer:Well, I happen to know there are some great members out in Idaho. I talked to the chapter there. So my path to where I am now with NATP was through chapter involvement. Mhmm. And NATP has a lot of chapters in most states in The US.
Jaimee Hammer:Okay? There are some areas, some states that do not have a local chapter, but there are resources that NATP is now making available to those two people also. So everyone gets some kind of local engagement and the chapters do their best to provide kind of the missing pieces. What's national not getting out there? They're not getting out that state law.
Jaimee Hammer:I come from New Jersey. New Jersey has a lot of education that the state chapter provides. They have a state day and a lot of the different local chapters will specifically have a relationship with the governing body of that state or the nearest state. Some of them, provide opportunity to have that nexus type of conference Mhmm. Where they bring in the next state over plus that state and have an example, a real life example.
Jaimee Hammer:How would it be treated in this state? How would it be treated over the bridge? What about someone who lives here but works over there? So we do have a lot of great support from our chapters and also the other, specific paths to local engagement we can get to the other members so that our members have what they need Mhmm. Federally, local, state, all those things.
Chris Picciurro:Yes. I think that one thing I've learned with a lot of the NATP educational pieces is that there are a lot of real life examples. I mean, there's a lot of continuing ed that is very much theoretical, but you don't see actual tax forms. And if I talk about depreciation and, for instance, if I say, well, you know, you can run a cost segregation study on a property you bought in 2021 for 2022, and, like, that sounds good. But how do I do a $4.81 a adjustment?
Chris Picciurro:Just in our world, we do so it's nice to say this is the form you do it on. Now your numbers are gonna be different, but here's a sample form. Exactly. And, I I'm impressed with a lot of that. And now for yourself, you it's kinda nice that you don't have any employees in a lot of ways.
Chris Picciurro:I know it could be challenging, but you talked about the post I love that term, post pandemic culture as far as employees or or workforce culture. Is that My own creation.
Jaimee Hammer:Pardon? My own creation. I think
Chris Picciurro:I wanna steal that. What are some of, like, what are some of the differences you're seeing? And then I've gotta imagine the pandemic really hit your client base. Right? And and PPP and all these other things were and just so challenging for you to absorb it.
Chris Picciurro:But for them, I mean, gosh, because they're in the entertainment business. That got shut down quick.
Jaimee Hammer:The gig economy was definitely, I'd say, in the top group of those most affected. Absolutely. And, you know, the government did shift, and Mhmm. There were creations of some programs to really reach out and help. Mhmm.
Jaimee Hammer:Now were they perfect? Were they without their own challenges? No. Did we have I think they were calling it the PPU, that extra amount of unemployment. Mhmm.
Jaimee Hammer:But we just spoke briefly about that adjustments with the unemployment and every state, again, treats unemployment differently. Were they gonna withhold properly? Well, in my state, the state withheld on the normal amount but not on the federal plus money. So every person that got unemployment got a lot more than they'd ever seen before, had no idea how to treat it, didn't understand that they weren't looking in the mail for a form, and how is that gonna affect all their numbers. So, you know, this speaks right back to our challenges.
Jaimee Hammer:Right? Mhmm. You never know what's around the corner in tax law. I always say to everybody who thinks, oh, you do taxes. That must be so boring.
Jaimee Hammer:I say, I'll tell you what. It can be tedious Mhmm. But it is never boring.
Chris Picciurro:Right. No. It's not. It's dynamic and it's it's about personal relationships and helping people. And if you have a heart of a teacher or you wanna help people out, it's gonna be very rewarding, because you're taking all these things that I just feel like with our industry, many of us feel and I'm kinda over it because I've been doing this forever, but I don't feel obligated to know everything.
Chris Picciurro:I'm gonna stick in my lane, and I'm gonna come to things and network with people that'll learn other things too. So, but, yeah, that's I mean, mention some of the bad afters too. That's why I like with NATP, it's so inclusive. We just were talking about on one of our other podcast episodes, I feel bad for some of the the the taxpayers because they're getting targeted by, tax scams, text message, emails, and and that sort of stuff that's but they're using these economic impact payment scams and these tax refund scams and, you know, not everyone has someone in their life like you that can they can go to and help. So that's I don't know.
Chris Picciurro:That's really challenging.
Jaimee Hammer:I mean, haven't you heard that the, stimulus payment number six is coming out next?
Chris Picciurro:Right. I got an I had a text message. I just have to click there and put my email in.
Jaimee Hammer:I know. And send the Best Buy gift cards.
Chris Picciurro:Yeah. It is I mean, it's we it was crazy going through these these these the list of what the what's going on with IRS. And I actually I think the IRS advocate advocates pretty well for the taxpayer as far as making them aware of it. Now does the average taxpayer ever go to irs.gov? Probably.
Chris Picciurro:It's probably not on their favorites. It's not on their, they're saved.
Jaimee Hammer:I mean that they should.
Chris Picciurro:They probably should check it out. What so we talked about the challenges of the industry. What trends do you see happening in the next, like, few years? I mean, from type of work performed or just needs of clients, what do you what do you see happening in we're changing I mean, are you anticipating different trends in our industry?
Jaimee Hammer:Well, definitely, what I believe would be the most obvious is paperless. You know, we come from a history of a lot of paper in our offices. We could take the statistics. How many cases do you buy a season? Right?
Jaimee Hammer:Right. And the trend is with the the generational changes of our taxpayers as we see gen x, gen y, gen z, whatever's next. They don't wanna print. Our employers are saving money by not printing out the w twos. Mhmm.
Jaimee Hammer:And so that brings the onus to the tax professional. How do we deal with paperless? Are we ready to go paperless? What are the IRS's requirements to be paperless? So I do think that that's probably in the top three of the trendings.
Jaimee Hammer:Mhmm. Right? But then we have to look again at that security and secure portals, and that's what's trending. Where where are we gonna keep our stuff safe away from those bad actors who are trying to get into our computers Mhmm. And also relate to the ever changing taxpayer because our kids who were 12 in just a couple years are gonna be working.
Jaimee Hammer:And may have you talked to anyone lightly about signing a check that's under 30? And then you say check and they mean like a check, the shape, a check.
Chris Picciurro:Right.
Jaimee Hammer:Some of them don't even know what a check is. Mhmm. They don't know how to fill out a check. So, you know, times are changing and we have to change with them. So I would say the transition in technology and saying goodbye to our friends, the papers Mhmm.
Jaimee Hammer:And saving the trees, that that's probably the biggest trend because we are a profession that has been drowning in paper for a long time.
Chris Picciurro:Mhmm. We've been lucky that we've been paperless for a long time, but it's we were a virtual firm and and and have a niche. So but it is challenging. And it kinda does crack me up. So I'm one of these that I actually like reading magazines, like, you know, trade magazines, and I see these ads from the like, hey.
Chris Picciurro:Put your thing in a nice binder, and it it adds value, but no one ever looks at those. Yeah. If someone needs their tax return for financing purposes, they could just go on their portal and and get it. But, yeah, paperless. For sure.
Chris Picciurro:How about do you how do you feel about tax planning and strategy as it pertains versus tax compliance work? Do you see any change shifting? I'm not trying to do a leading question or anything, but do you see a change in our industry as far as the needs of clients? Or
Jaimee Hammer:I have faith that our clients, and I mean this in general in the country, are getting smarter. Are thinking more big picture. And what that means is it's not necessarily only about the bottom line, the result of their tax return. Mhmm. But how did we get there?
Jaimee Hammer:How can we make it different next year? So that's where we go from a tax preparation standpoint to a tax planning. You know, how can I think ahead? Mhmm. I'm good I'm good to talk about life events.
Jaimee Hammer:I'm gonna talk about getting married, having children, my children going to college, and they didn't get a full scholarship. And gosh, I would really love to retire at 37 because some people don't.
Chris Picciurro:That'd be nice.
Jaimee Hammer:Not me but I'm almost 37 now so I'd I'm too close. Mhmm. So, you know, there are big picture conversations and that's, as you mentioned earlier, what makes us so much more than the number crunchers some people think we are. We think about their life and that's why I appreciate this profession. Mhmm.
Jaimee Hammer:It's about a life story within the frame of the tax code and how we can do the best by our clients. Right? Mhmm. And that is a big big picture and a big relationship. And planning is looking ahead, looking behind what do we need to shift and what's coming up and how do we meet that.
Chris Picciurro:Mhmm. I'm seeing that there's a lot of people that are the tax professionals becoming a more important part of someone's, what we call their personal board of directors. And that's very important, you know. But it's tough for the tax for tax professional to really embrace that sometimes and not think that we say, oh, your tax return should be a verb, not a noun. That's just one of our little slogans, and it's really true because you the planning, you know, you can you can now if you have a w two and and etcetera, etcetera, that is not there's a lot of actually, I believe anyone could do planning.
Chris Picciurro:We've done some case studies where I truly believe a teacher and and, like, an entry level electrician can do planning.
Jaimee Hammer:I agree.
Chris Picciurro:And I think that a lot more the a lot more people that are just starting their career should look at tax free income and growth instead of just tax deferral. And I think a lot of people are realizing, like, tax rates are gonna go up in the future. This is right now is the glory days. Not in five years and ten years. So sometimes what we call people get misdiagnosed, meaning it kills you if someone's in a 12% marginal tax bracket.
Chris Picciurro:They got their socking money in their four zero one k or maybe they might wanna put it into a Roth or something that's a little more tax advantaged. So but but I think that yeah. I agree tax tax people are getting or tax taxpayers are getting smarter. There's more resources for them. And I am a little concerned that there's a certain segment of people that think tax preparation is a commodity and not a personal service.
Chris Picciurro:But it really is. It's not a commodity. It's not like a Snicker bar versus a three Musketeers. It's like it's a relationship, you know. Relationships are what are most important for a lot of these people.
Chris Picciurro:So and John, you've all I mean, you've been a business owner for many years. I don't know. How do you how do you like, when you started your business versus what you think about now? Oh, gosh.
John Tripolsky:Yeah. It's drastically different. So I will say this as far as for relationships go. So, like, we were talking on the, on the flight out here. Right?
John Tripolsky:And so talking about AI a little bit. So that's a that's a completely good on that path. But is it is it gonna be a challenge in this industry? Probably, yeah. In some sense.
John Tripolsky:Right? But nothing's ever gonna replace the relationship a %. Right? So even though there might be, you know, as far as for technology goes, it might be, you know, I wouldn't say preventively keeping you from going off a track, some are another. Nothing is ever gonna replace me calling you and saying, hey.
John Tripolsky:I have a idea or a question and you saying, no. It won't work or, yes. It would work based off of something else you know that I may be doing in the future. Right? So that's when you talk about starting a business, a lot of people probably get into, I wouldn't say trouble, but it could go one way or the other.
John Tripolsky:Right?
Jaimee Hammer:Like Mhmm.
John Tripolsky:Some people could say, oh, you know, I'm gonna quit my day job and jump right into being self employed and it might make financially no sense for them. Like, we know a bunch of people, right, who've gone into business and you almost wanna tell them, listen, like, you're doing it so I wouldn't say wrong, but the way you're doing it now, you might as well go work at Starbucks. You will make more money. I'd like your free coffee. Bradley and that too where the bagels are.
Chris Picciurro:And I'm proud of you. You didn't say I have a quick text question. Yep. Those are always the best. I can talk on that
John Tripolsky:for a little bit.
Chris Picciurro:Every time, like, every quick question's a long answer. You have a long question, I've got a quick answer for you. Just that's I feel like what happened.
John Tripolsky:But don't worry.
John Tripolsky:I have a simple tax return.
Jaimee Hammer:Very simple. Yes.
Chris Picciurro:Oh, in my word. Yes. Very simple. Then if it's death. Those simple, quote, simple ones can really trip you up.
Chris Picciurro:Right? Because they could you could have issues with claiming dependence or there could just be a litany of issues there. So
Jaimee Hammer:And that's why tax preparation is never boring. That's true. I stand by that statement forever.
Chris Picciurro:Maybe that'll be the title of this.
John Tripolsky:Well, you I I mean, I give you guys a lot of credit being in the industry. And, like, you you really are a tax pro, psychologist. Everything really rolled into one. Right? And that's what almost makes you really good at your job.
John Tripolsky:Like, you know what's going on in people's lives. Mhmm. And as far as, you know, you're always talking about tax planning, you know, looking ahead, looking down the road. Like, you could give good guidance, which, I mean, is very involved in their lives. It's not just, you know, what color car do I buy?
John Tripolsky:Oh, don't buy a red one because it's gonna fade, Or don't get a white one because it's gonna get dirty. Everything you guys recommend is, like, long term implications.
Chris Picciurro:But yeah. We know a lot more information than we want to a lot of times. And Trusted advisor. Right. A trusted advisor.
Jaimee Hammer:Trusted advisor. Just like your doctor, We we play a very important role in someone's lives. And and and it's not easy, you know. And that's the luck. And it's the honor and privilege of being a tax professional is being a part of someone's story and really helping them succeed, not just a business owner, but even someone who has a very straightforward path as an employee.
Jaimee Hammer:Like you said, there's always some type of planning that can be done even if it's, hey. How come you're not putting money away for the future? Mhmm. And I deal with people in entertainment. One of my biggest challenges is getting them to look ahead because creative souls are usually in the now.
Jaimee Hammer:Mhmm. But I need to say, hey, don't don't you wanna have something socked away for later? So these are really important conversations that we always have to have. And again, back to the professional community to have that network and community that you may be able to call your neighbor, your friend, other tax professionals and say, you know what? I had someone walk in.
Jaimee Hammer:These are the facts. Help me brainstorm. Where can I guide them? And and there's a really great support system in a community.
Chris Picciurro:No. I agree. That's because otherwise, you guys are almost operating on all these little lonely islands, for lack of
John Tripolsky:better terms. So you guys really try to bring that bring that together. And I I feel like, Chris, it's funny. You know, you talk about planning and and now my my creative brain's turning. Right?
John Tripolsky:I mean, you But now when you talk about planning, I feel like this might have been almost a decade ago.
Chris Picciurro:I don't know where we were doing or what we were at. I can't remember you. I can't believe you remember a decade ago.
John Tripolsky:I remember every moment with
Chris Picciurro:you, sir. Oh, are you
John Tripolsky:kidding me? But I I forgot where we were when we were redoing, but I I kept bringing up, oh, well, you know, it's it's easy now. Right? You're out of tax season. And they're like, no.
John Tripolsky:There is no like, no. There is no real tax season anymore. Like, it's gone it's kind of gone away because that's when you guys are really making a shift if I remember right. So changing your practice around a lot.
Chris Picciurro:Right? Correct. Yeah. We made a shift to a membership based model. And, our you know, we don't feel like we don't like the term.
Chris Picciurro:We we say there's compliance season and there's planning season, but planning season's all year. You know? So, in our private practice, we have about two thirds a two third extension rate, believe it or not. And but it's by design because a lot of times, the implementation pieces, we're waiting to see how some other things fall, but everyone's practice is a little different. You know?
Chris Picciurro:For some people, there might be I mean, for you, your clients are kinda off when you're off, seems.
Jaimee Hammer:Semi, but it does not change their preparation. I'll tell you right now. So I probably have a I'd say about 10 to 15% extension rate. Mhmm. But and I would tend to see the seasons of the year as, yes, the deadline filing season.
Jaimee Hammer:And then we go into education season. And it's Right. Come on back to NATP and get all of the education that I need to feel confident about what's next. I also do controversy work, which Oh, really?
Chris Picciurro:I didn't know that.
Jaimee Hammer:You know? You gotta you gotta
Chris Picciurro:Gotta mix it up. All.
Jaimee Hammer:Yes. So and and so I see the seasons of the year, like you said, it's never really a dead time. Maybe the holiday season is the most dead time that November to December, I get to actually think about family and and that stuff and then get right back in with our forms in January. But that's what the the, you know, general public always thinks. So what do you do after April 15?
Jaimee Hammer:Mhmm. Actually, there's a lot to do.
Chris Picciurro:I just thought I'd kind of like I just
John Tripolsky:thought you really like getting past the fifteenth, and I thought you all were happy on my birthday.
Chris Picciurro:That is his birthday.
Jaimee Hammer:On the fifteenth.
Chris Picciurro:Yes. So, if you could well, April 15, I think, is it's it's a deadline, but it's a deadline that could get extended, but it is a deadline. For us, Arthur, are we're happy to file by April 15, but we're looking for the best result possible. And for a lot of our clients, they're not gonna get the best result possible by then. Maybe they're waiting on information or what have you.
Chris Picciurro:What do you think the if you if you got to make the rules, what what would you make the filing original filing deadline?
Jaimee Hammer:Oh, my creative. I do answer that. In my own world, I tell my clients this all the time. In my world, this will never happen, by the way. We would take the the last, digit of everyone's Social Security number, and we'd have scattered deadlines based on the the 0123456789.
Jaimee Hammer:And we'd start at April. Yep. Then April would be maybe 0, and then May 15 would be one. And we'd get through the whole year. Wouldn't that be amazing?
Jaimee Hammer:I've always wanted to Forget all the budgets.
Chris Picciurro:I was thinking by last name, but then I thought people got married. So you would so if it would you would never have a married joint tax
Jaimee Hammer:return, maybe you would Primary.
Chris Picciurro:Yeah.
Jaimee Hammer:And if you didn't like if you didn't like the deadline that comes with the one spouse, you would just switch the order on the tax return.
Chris Picciurro:That's a great idea. Or you would just put you know, you create a dating app. I already got a dating app in mind for people with rep status. You know, someone hey. I've got a high w two.
Chris Picciurro:I'm looking for a spouse that's a rep status so I could take a bunch of bonus
Jaimee Hammer:I need to know how that's gonna work out for you.
Chris Picciurro:Well, I'm not hopefully, I'm not in that app for a long time or ever, I should say. But, but, no, that would be interesting. Like, yeah. I'm, I file in April. That's a bonus.
Chris Picciurro:Okay? I get more time. No. I do I would like a staggered. I mean, we've done our best to stagger it ourselves, but it would be nice to to be staggered.
Chris Picciurro:And I I know the pandemic, there were some bad things that came from it, but having to, like, having to May 15 wasn't the worst thing to me.
Jaimee Hammer:I liked May.
Chris Picciurro:And I think that the problem is the the form us the the tax rate is getting the forms is getting condensed. Right? Because that they're more complicated, especially in k one or
Jaimee Hammer:Anyone with investments. Right. It is it's a real problem. And we're starting maybe I'd say an average for an advanced, consolidated October. We're seeing maybe mid March, but some even further.
Jaimee Hammer:I know that I've got a nice collection. They don't only work with artists. I also work with some kind of advanced investors. Mhmm. And they don't see their k ones.
Jaimee Hammer:Some of them until September Mhmm. Regularly. And, you know, it's not fair. Granted, tax code is not fair. Mhmm.
Jaimee Hammer:Fair doesn't come into play. Mhmm. But, yes, I think a solution could be a a staggered deadline. Could be from circumstance. I like my Social Security number way of looking at it, but it's you know, I don't see it happening.
Jaimee Hammer:Budgets on the state level, local level, federal it it's never gonna happen.
Chris Picciurro:Deb, we can go on another show about quarterly estimated tax payments on those dates. That's an old that's a whole another another show. I know that the challenge of the April deadline for our practice is figuring out extension payments and figuring out where they're especially if they're most people know where their k one these k ones are gonna be, but there's a lot of there's a lot of challenges to that. So I I don't know what to say out of it. Now we talk about practices your your practice a little bit.
Chris Picciurro:What are some practice management hacks that you might be able to give to some of our our loyal listeners as a little bit of, advice? What's worked well for you? And
Jaimee Hammer:I would say my number one piece of advice that I am living, breathing, and still cultivating, I'd say, is setting expectations and being very clear about them with our clients. Whether it's deadlines, the way you present information, be very clear and explain that that these this is my process and this is how I can do my best work for you. So meet my expectations so I can meet yours. Mhmm. There's nothing that I think is of greater importance than that.
Jaimee Hammer:But second to that would be take advantage of technology. Learn it just like you learn tax law, because this is crucial to the growth and success of your practice or being a part of a larger practice, whatever it is, expanding what you know because it's amazing. And it's thrilling and exciting what's available. And it can be incredibly intimidating Mhmm. If you don't learn it and use it to your best ability.
Jaimee Hammer:Mhmm. So and and help your clients because there are things available to them and that's when you become the true really well versed advisor, mentor, teacher, and business coach in a sense in terms of that part of their business. Because all of them, they need to understand that need they need to live it.
Chris Picciurro:Mhmm. I think setting expectations is huge. And we've been trying to do that in our practice from the begin. Like, pretty much give everyone an email in January saying, our our turnaround our we are shooting for a ten business day turnaround time on tax prep, which is pretty good. Assuming you fill out your online survey slash organizer, and we have your documents.
Chris Picciurro:Now if someone forgets a mortgage statement, you're still in the queue. But there's gotta be that triggering point where you're in the queue, and this is expectation that's when the cloud you know? And so we've, our challenge has been, like, someone thinks they're in line, but they're not because they just uploaded all their docs, but didn't do their organizer. And our organizers are pretty we use the Canopy tax organizer, so they're pretty short. They're not they take about twelve minutes.
Chris Picciurro:That's it. But setting expectations and also expectations of your availability because then you know, there's some practice management hacks that we have used that we wanna be available. But for us, we we have a one business day turnaround time for our communications. I think that's very fair, and we don't we we stand by that. That's in all of our engagement letters.
Chris Picciurro:If you if if that doesn't meet your expectation, I don't know where you're gonna find something better, but then we're just not a good fit. You know? Now if it because that's tough to do. I mean, in in creating that it's almost like creating the the the expectations for yourself so that you can say, hey. At this time, if it's Saturday and you're at a you know, go to the movies, then you're not feeling obligated to answer these these crazy questions.
Chris Picciurro:So
Jaimee Hammer:We'll see you're at the right place because you're here at Taxposium, and we've got some fantastic vendors with all kinds of platforms to help you with office practices and and really figuring out communication, best practice, different platforms that are gonna meet different needs.
Chris Picciurro:Mhmm.
Jaimee Hammer:And going back to my coined phrase now. Right? The post COVID culture. Mhmm. And we have to bring that self care in, which comes up with, you know, separation of church and state Mhmm.
Jaimee Hammer:Business and personal life. Right?
Chris Picciurro:That's a great point. And I love the vendor show. I love the it looks trade shows if I ever go to when I go to a conference because I we have a list of about eight things that I'm specifically looking for for vendors. Because if you don't come in prepared, you're gonna wander around and everything's gonna seem better, but you might think, I love the CRM. I'm gonna ditch mine.
Chris Picciurro:But wait. They didn't have the email automation or they didn't have templates like I had. So you really need to come in with a grocery list and say, this is what I'm looking. Like, for us, we have certain things we're gonna be looking for this week for for new relationships and vendors. So, alright.
Chris Picciurro:Last question, but it's fun. Tell us about your ideal weekend. After this conference, you get to do whatever you want.
Jaimee Hammer:Oh, boy. Okay. I'm flying to Europe, and it could be somewhere I've ever been because there've been some beautiful places. But instead, I'm thinking I might go somewhere new. Maybe I go to Dubai.
Jaimee Hammer:Mhmm. And I've got, like, a luxury suite Okay. House Mhmm. To enjoy. There's definitely some spa services involved.
Jaimee Hammer:I'm gonna bring loved ones, friends. I'm gonna bring a a nice group of people, and there's gonna be a lot of food. Mhmm. But, you know, I would never choose to be anywhere other than right here at Tax Posey.
Chris Picciurro:Look at what I said. They have to report. After this, a well deserved week of of being an ambassador for NATP. And, also, I think it's special that you're not just an ambassador for NATP and the president, but also a practitioner. So you live it and you could relate to all of
Jaimee Hammer:Boots on the ground.
Chris Picciurro:Yes. All of us practitioners. So no. I really appreciate it. This has been a ton of fun.
Jaimee Hammer:We're done?
Chris Picciurro:We can go. We we wanna
Jaimee Hammer:Oh, no.
John Tripolsky:No. No. Don't don't give Chris that much leeway. Don't keep going. Next thing you know, we'll be talking about cost segs.
John Tripolsky:We'll we'll get all in the weeds. But is there anything else you wanna add? Like, what what might be a couple suggestions to somebody looking to get into the industry maybe?
Jaimee Hammer:Oh, gosh. I mean
John Tripolsky:Don't scare anybody.
Jaimee Hammer:At the end. No. You know, we talked from the very beginning when I got to introduce myself and and describe my path, which was not the typical path in, what I would love to say to the young adults who are figuring out where they're going is this is an incredibly rewarding profession that you are making your mark on helping your clients. You have a can be a very flexible experience for your own, you know, growing up and developing maybe a family or time with friends or whoever you wanna spend time with and making your mark on the world, helping, being that advisor, friend, mentor for so many people. It's a incredibly rewarding career.
Jaimee Hammer:It takes a lot of wisdom as you acquire your experience and knowledge, and it can only help everybody around you. That's that's how I see it truly.
John Tripolsky:Very well said. Is the best way we could close out
Chris Picciurro:a plan? I'm gonna shut up now. Yeah. You can't beat that.
John Tripolsky:I'm sorry, man. Like, you got nothing. But on that note, Jamie, thank you so much for joining us. I know we're looking out here, out the window, but I believe it's downtown San Antonio. I could be completely wrong.
John Tripolsky:It looks like it. But honestly, thank you for taking the time. This this meant a lot to us. Anybody who's listening to this, if you look below or off to the usually on the right side, on any of the show notes, we'll put some links in there direct to NATP. If anybody has any questions, I'm sure I'm sure you guys would be, be a perfect spot for that.
Jaimee Hammer:So
Chris Picciurro:If you're traveling to do to Dubai, we're gonna put Jamie's LinkedIn. You could take her with you and her family.
Jaimee Hammer:Sounds good.
John Tripolsky:Awesome. Well, thank you guys for for doing this podcast with us, and thank you everybody for joining us for this, another episode in the book. So we love to hear the ideas that you guys have. Any topic ideas, any suggestions, any guests that you think may be great for the show, we would love to hear them. So until next time.
John Tripolsky:Hey, everyone. John Still here from the MRR team. Wanted to thank Jamie again for joining us on this, taking out so much time of her precious day here. We recorded this as you may have heard in the show. Really, just as we were kicking off there in San Antonio at the national conference that was Taxposium twenty twenty three, We, caught her in the hallway.
John Tripolsky:Said, hey. Let's do a podcast. No. All joking aside, we did have it
John Tripolsky:on the calendar. So it
John Tripolsky:was planned for. But, hopefully, you guys enjoyed that content, some of the questions we went into, her very unique background, how she got into the industry, and then also really just her discussion and kind of those key points on what not just NATP does specifically, but really what organizations provide tax professionals in the industry, really the importance of their existence and everything that they offer. So again, thank you everybody for joining and listening to this. Hopefully, you enjoyed it as much as we did recording it. Thank you, Jamie, again.
John Tripolsky:And, of course, thank you to my partner in crime, my buddy of almost twenty years, and one of the smartest gentlemen I've ever met in my life, Chris Pacquero. So thank you, Chris. Thank you, Jamie. Thank you, NATP, for letting us record this. So hopefully everybody enjoyed it again, and we will see everybody next time.
Disclaimer:The content of this podcast does not constitute an offer of securities. Offerings can only be made through an offering memorandum, and and you should carefully examine the risk factors and other information contained in the memorandum. The content provided is for educational purposes only. We encourage you to seek personalized investment advice from your financial professional. For all tax and legal advice, please consult your CPA or attorney.
Disclaimer:Investment advisory services are offered through Cabin Advisors, a registered investment adviser. Securities are offered through Cabin Securities, a registered broker dealer.
