Ep. 20 | Marketing Strategies for Tax Professionals
Download MP3Welcome to the Mr. R Show, presented by the MRR Institute. This podcast is designed specifically for tax professionals modernize their practice by maximizing revenue through resources. Join us as we explore expert strategies, innovative tools, and actionable advice to help you navigate the evolving landscape of the tax industry. Whether you're aiming to grow your business or enhance your client experience, you're in the right place.
Intro:Now let's get to the show and transform your practice together.
John Tripolsky:Hey, everybody. Welcome back to the Mr. R Show brought to you here by the MRR Institute. So as always, anybody who's listened to this here in the past or, you know, now we're we're crossing milestones here. Episode 20 and beyond, we're looking at we've touched on so many aspects on how to really grow and optimize your tax pro business.
John Tripolsky:So when we say that, actually, anything in your firm, you know, obviously, we try to touch all these corners. And the one thing that we haven't talked a lot about is marketing. Marketing and branding and how to actually kind of expand beyond your current borders, we should say. Not not necessarily geographic borders, maybe proverbial borders. Maybe it's a a niche or something you're trying to get out there, trying to attract a new audience.
John Tripolsky:Maybe even it's just retaining clients, getting more clients that are like the ones you already have. It all comes down to marketing, which then comes down to sales and relationship building. So as always, Chris Pacquero, I wouldn't be able to do this show without you, sir. So welcome back. How are you?
Chris Picciurro:Thank you. Oh, it's it's going great. Thanks for asking. Happy to be back on the show. Very excited about our special guest today.
Chris Picciurro:So, John, you don't you're not stuck with me for the next hour, gabbing about some something or another. And, I'm very excited about our special guest. I agree. You know, in today's world, if you are a tax or accounting firm owner or if you are you might be listening to this as as a as a team member. Maybe you're getting your continuing education, and you kinda have aspirations of either being, having your own practice or you could be, maybe you could be a change agent for your own practice.
Chris Picciurro:Maybe you're maybe you're working somewhere that there's some maybe more experienced or mature age tax professionals and ownership, and you're that next generation of owner coming through, through the pipeline. So I I always say to John and, you know, with our practice and our private CPA practice, the, like, the the Internet is our showroom. Right? You know, we don't have typically the offices and and, you know, people don't come in the office as much. So, so how do we differentiate ourselves?
Chris Picciurro:How do we, we always say, you know, people don't care how much you know until they know how much you care. So how do you how do you create a a a culture and a a brand and a voice that exemplifies yourself if you're a sole practitioner or your team if you've got an amazing team, in in you know, because a lot of times, I could tell just with my own you know, obviously, we have our mastermind group, and I've been doing some coaching and little little getting no tax professionals all over the country. Probably the biggest challenge and, John, you kinda see this too from the you know, on on your end, as as we've traveled together. But the challenge one of the biggest challenges for a tax professional or an accounting professional that owns their own practice is they they tend to gripe about certain clients. Right?
Chris Picciurro:And, and, ultimately, you know, your firm and your practice is gonna it's gonna run how you engineered it. So if you don't have a client proper client acquisition process, if your or if your clients aren't aligned with your offerings and your in which your your kind of your culture or your fiber of your firm, then you're gonna end up with clients that aren't a great fit, and you and many times you feel stuck with them. So I know that's a long winded answer when you're just saying hello.
John Tripolsky:No. It's perfect. Excited
Chris Picciurro:to have, Scott Citron joining us. We have worked together for for quite a few years now. Scott and his team, work with the biggest players out there, as clients in the accounting and tax field. He owns, a marketing public relations communication firm really geared, in my opinion, to help the you know, obviously, helps a lot of other people, but, tax professionals. And, we got introduced by a mutual friend, and and I'm excited to have him.
Chris Picciurro:We had to we had to pull some strings to get him on. But, Scott, thank you so much for joining us today.
Scott Cytron:Well, thanks for having me.
Chris Picciurro:So, tell us a little bit about your your history, how you came to get into marketing public relations, and and how you kinda get got into working with, a lot of tax professionals and accounting professionals.
Scott Cytron:Sure, Raul. I appreciate appreciate you all having me on. My firm will actually be 30 years old this Thanksgiving, which is longer than most of my relationships. So I'm pretty proud of that. I work with my son.
Scott Cytron:He's worked with me for eleven years already. And, yeah, couldn't do this without him. His name is Brian, and, the clients love him more than they love me. So I'm maybe doing something right with that. I have a I was foremost first and foremost, a writer, a writer and editor.
Scott Cytron:And when I graduated journalism school way, way back, I won't tell you how long, but it's been a few years, wanted to be a magazine editor. And then I realized I had to eat, so I decided that I had to do something. And, the that year, the job market was pretty tight. I looked for work. I went to University of Missouri, Columbia and looked for work at Kansas City because I was actually dating somebody at the time who lived in KC, which was not a good reason to stay in KC.
Scott Cytron:So I hang back. I couldn't find a job up there. I actually, one time, applied to be a Hallmark card writer. They recruited pretty heavily at Mizzou. And, the the test, we everybody had to do a test, and you had to do, like, a you had to do a poem for a sympathy card.
Scott Cytron:You had to do a poem for a new pet. Anniversary, you know, the sky's the limit, and I, of course, I failed that terribly. So I did didn't end up being a Hallmark card writer. But, moved back to Dallas, which is where I was from, born and raised, and looked for work for a while. Couldn't couldn't really find anything.
Scott Cytron:So I actually volunteered my time at the United Way. And when I did that, I remember my mother saying, why the you know what? Are you wasting your time with a nonprofit with no chances of having an interview? And I said, well, I think it's gonna lead to something, and it did. It got me a job at, the American Red Cross.
Scott Cytron:And I was assistant PR director, and I was making, a whole $12,000 a year. Thought I had died and gone to heaven. So to make the trip a little bit shorter for you, through the years, I worked for various nonprofits. That was really where my interest was at the very beginning, was working for nonprofits. I even looked at, starting an agency, a PR agency, only working with nonprofits, and couldn't really get the math to work on that.
Scott Cytron:So I ended up going into, working for a PR agency kind of in between there where I kind of got my roots, pretty well sewn on, the media side of the business. I was already a writer, so I needed some experience on how to place news releases, how to get how to work with the media, the PR side of the business, and developed that. Eventually, went to work for the Texas Society of CPAs. So everybody is curious about why I know what I know about accounting and tax, and it's because of that. I worked with them just shy of nine years and was, head of, internal marketing.
Scott Cytron:So I did all the marketing for the CPE program. I did the membership marketing, did the annual report, did the annual meeting. Had a staff of I think at one time, I had 10 reporting to me, which was way more than I ever wanted, before. I thought I was a lousy manager, the whole way the whole way, but, you know, it turned out okay and was bounced out through a layoff. And so I cried for quite a few days because I was one of those people that never thought I would be laid off ever, and I was.
Scott Cytron:And, some friends gave me some really good advice. They said, look. You can continue to wallow in this misery or you can do something about it. And I did. And so, got some really good advice too from others who said, look.
Scott Cytron:You've been networking with people for years, helping them find work, find gigs, engagements. Call on your network. Let them know what you're doing. Let let everybody you know know what you wanna do. And the the issue was I really didn't know what I wanted to do.
Scott Cytron:But I got a couple of calls from vendors I had worked with when I was at the TSCPA because I ran the affinity program, the kind of the credit card program, the home mortgage program, any any incentives for members. And I got called by the, financial arm of what was back then, MBNA America, which ended up being Bank of America eventually. And their whole goal was to sell more affinity cards to nonprofits and associations like the, wildlife card or the girl scout card or whatever whatever branded card that is. So they brought me up once a once a week for six months to Boston to work with their, staff to let them know, kind of train them on how nonprofits thought it worked and associations worked. And so that was a good gig, and I I had gotten one other thing in the meantime.
Scott Cytron:And I thought, well, if I could just be busy through, like, the next six months, I can try to make this work. You know? In other words, just pay bills. Don't do anything else, but just get the bills paid, and it worked out. I did a lot of accounting work at the beginning, a lot of text and accounting work because of my background.
Scott Cytron:And then, you know, thought, well, I don't wanna be pitching a hold as the accounting guys. So I actually did a lot of health care, a lot of local health care as it turned out. Yeah. Some really interesting, work that I still think is interesting and enjoyed that a lot. I did some b to c work, and I I worked for Blockbuster.
Scott Cytron:I did some work for Pizza Hut, which was based here, and, just kind of a lot of lot of really diverse gigs doing marketing, PR, and communications. And but the accounting piece kept coming back to me, and I always tell people I'm like the godfather where I got pulled back in. And I did. And so around the eighth or ninth year, I thought, okay. I'll just kinda stick with accounting, but I'll look for other work if I can get in other other industries.
Scott Cytron:And that's paid off over the years. People think I'm a content subject matter expert. You know, I guess I am to a degree, so I can't really do a tax return, but I could sure talk about it and write about it. So, you know, we've been I I think our agency has been very successful over the years, and I really do say that, and I'm knocking on wood, because we treat our clients like they're our friends. And there's a there's a fine line you have to draw certainly between, you know, the real relationship you have with your clients.
Scott Cytron:But my best day I have ever is when a client will call me and say, I've got a problem. Can you help me solve it? And that's where the intuitiveness, the experience, just kind of knowing the industry and knowing how to work with clients and how they can work with their clients really comes in. And, I'm very proud of that. Nowadays, we we do a lot of, we still do a lot of PR marketing.
Scott Cytron:We, do as much writing as we always have. We do a lot of editing still. We probably do less media relations than we used to. I'm on a like, all people all of my colleagues in PR that work with accountants, we're on a first thing basis with all the all the trade editors trade publication editors. If a client said to me, can you, you know, can you help us get into the construction trades?
Scott Cytron:Sure. I can do that. I have to do some research for it, but I can make that happen.
Chris Picciurro:So So, obviously, basically, you're forced oh, I'm sorry?
Scott Cytron:No. I was gonna say, basically, it's a journey along the way, and we're still learning every day.
Chris Picciurro:No. Absolutely. And one of the things I picked up on was we we talk about in I mean, gosh. I talk about it with my kids all the time and over or and we talk about in MRR with tax pros as, you know, bitter or better. Right?
Chris Picciurro:So you you can and and when when you're laid off, none of us imagine we're laid off, and we're kind of that generation where, you know, being laid off seems you feel like a failure. Right? You you that's that's like, oh my gosh. The worst thing that could happen. You know?
Chris Picciurro:And just the mentality, and and I don't think people you know? So it's a but you you got ultimately got you were bitter for maybe a couple days, it sounds like, but you got better. You know? And there's a you know, I've we, another thing to think about is win you know, win or learn. Right?
Chris Picciurro:It's if you kinda try to keep that mentality that you didn't lose, you you're learning. Again, you know, we win more we learn more from losing than winning, but, but just yeah. That that's pretty cool because you're able to bounce back and then and take you down a completely different path here. So,
Scott Cytron:Oh, absolutely. I mean, if I hadn't been laid off you know, I think at one point, I remember thinking, I'm gonna run the TSCPA. Like, I'm gonna be executive director. I'm gonna be the president Because I had a pretty interesting career there, doing lots of different things. If I said I wanted to do something, they would let me do it.
Scott Cytron:And it wasn't a very defined role. It was more, yeah, go go and do it if if you think it's going to be increased membership or going to help help the members, go do that. And I really thought I was in line to take it over. I actually, at one point, interviewed to be executive director of the Dallas chapter of TSCPA, which back then, I don't remember how many members they had, but it was a lot. And I made it to the final panel interview and didn't get it because I wasn't a CPA.
Scott Cytron:They'd ended up hiring somebody that was, and I totally understand that.
John Tripolsky:And, Scott, I think too it it's you know, you mentioned earlier on too about your background being, you know, doing Pizza Hut and, you know, some of these other places. That's I I I mean, I've I've always felt this way. So probably for twenty years, it's it's such a benefit when people have those experiences, right, different industries, different markets, different positions in different industries. And then kind of your role now, you know, skipping ahead, you know, into the p the PR media and marketing world. It's so it's let me backtrack a little bit.
John Tripolsky:I've always said some of the best marketers I've met in my life and have ever worked for for me when I had an agency actually had a law degree but never practiced law. And it was almost their train of thinking is something that is much harder to teach them than the concepts of marketing and sales. Right? So in your case, I think that's fantastic because I think now you you probably have a better understanding, right, of consumer behavior, etcetera. And now you can take that.
John Tripolsky:Like, you mentioned, like, your niche for some of the part, right, is with CPAs and and the financial world, right, where and then you mentioned the construction trade. They're polar opposites, but yet I'm sure, like you said, do a little research. You know enough to what to look for in those industries that then you start connecting the dots. And, I mean, some of the conversations we've had with tax professionals, we almost I I think, Chris, I don't know if you can attest to this or not, but some of them kind of accidentally find their niche by by way of just kinda stumbling upon it, or sometimes they go out and seek it. And I I always find that super interesting.
John Tripolsky:Right?
Scott Cytron:Oh, yeah. I mean, I I completely agree with that. I mean, you you know, to me, a niche is really pursuing your passion. So if you really hate working with construction or you really don't like working with, what's another example, retail, don't do it. You know?
Scott Cytron:Why would you why would you put yourself through that torture? Yet if you like, you know, if you have a hobby, let's say, what would a good example of a hobby be? Maybe
Chris Picciurro:I'm not saying
John Tripolsky:Maybe you pickleball.
Scott Cytron:Well, maybe you enjoy failing or that. So work with an industry that's associated with that kind of business. You know? I mean, that's it's as simple as that because you already understand the industry. So it's a matter of, okay, how do I find those clients that are in that niche so I could really, you know, give them some of my institutional memory and knowledge to help them grow?
Chris Picciurro:Well, I mean, the Tennessee's or not the tech same same and the tech Texas Society CPAs is a huge organization. And, you know, and I think that, yeah, that definitely helped you out a lot with, with that. And John and I work a lot with with different associations now doing continuing ad or or getting involved as much as we can. So what so let's talk about, you know, for tax and accounting pros. How to you know, let's say you've got somebody that that is a general practitioner, and they they've kinda have clients.
Chris Picciurro:They've got maybe, you know, 300 clients and spanning they they don't really have a specialty. Right? They're just they're general and they really want to niche into something. So for us, you know, it's real estate and estate planning attorneys. Those are the two niches that we're focused on right now.
Chris Picciurro:We have clients outside of that niche, and we would we will still work with them, but that's our real house, if that makes sense. And so let's say, yeah, you do have someone that really enjoys a a a niche or a or could be I call it a segment. So maybe they want to do maybe they want it to be in a specific geographic location. But let's, let's say someone's looking to to work with hairdressers just because I don't have any, have have any hair. You know?
Chris Picciurro:I I know a client. I don't be able to work with I have a friend that's her specialty is, female veterinarian owners, specifically. But let's say you have someone that wants to work with hairdressers, or people that own salons. What steps should they take just in that beginning as far as is from a marketing or branding, or defining their brand identity should they should they think about?
Scott Cytron:That's a great question. And I think one thing that they can do really easily is go to local networking meetings. There are almost every city has BNI. They have, whatever their local branded group is. And these are these are small business owners typically that, where they'll, you know how it goes.
Scott Cytron:Well, they'll well, they'll have one person from each industry as a member. Could be a breakfast meeting, could be launched, or whatever whatever it is. Like our local b and I here, we looked at joining at one point. Actually, my son did. There was a wallpaper hanger.
Scott Cytron:There was a, a drape salesperson. There was a vet, you know, different lawyers, but they all specialize in different things. I guarantee you there's probably going to be a salon owner that's a member of these things as well. So by by way of networking, you can actually meet some of these people that are out there. You know, there's a rule in those groups where you don't really solicit others for business, But I think it's an unwritten rule because if you show up regularly, you're contributing to the group.
Scott Cytron:Somebody's gonna ask you once you give your, you know, your elevator speech, which I actually have trained accountants on how to give those speeches. It's pretty scary what they come up with before we before we figure out how they should do it, is you're you're gonna meet somebody that's gonna be interested in in what you do. So I think that's a that's probably a good step. Now it's gonna cost you some money to join those groups, but look at it as, you know, you'll get one engagement, and it'll pay for the whole year of membership most likely. Another thing you can do is start to ask for referrals.
Scott Cytron:So I think one thing accountants, bookkeepers, CPAs, EAs are really bad about is asking for referrals. I think it has to do with the the folks everybody is in this industry, the ability to be liked. And what I say by that what I mean by that is most accountants are afraid that if they ask their client for a referral, the client will be offended. Okay? And if the client is offended, then they may not be a client for very much longer.
Scott Cytron:Whereas the opposite is really true because your clients want referrals just as much as you do. Now you may not have had that conversation with a client yet about referrals, but you can have it any time and start that. And it's basically, as simple as taking a client out to breakfast or lunch or dinner or whatever, and making clear that make it clear that you're not talking about what you're doing with them in the business area, but you're gonna talk about your businesses. In other words, what kind of referrals are you looking for? Where do you wanna be?
Scott Cytron:You know, those kinds of conversations. I have a I have a great story. I had a, work with a managed services company up in New Jersey that, only worked with Sage clients. And so they they worked with Sage, and the owner was telling me that, you know, that they their sales are off. Said, you know, our sales are a little bit down.
Scott Cytron:You know? Do you have any ideas? What do you think? And I said, well, are your key salespeople, including you, taking you know, are you meeting with their clients to talk about things other than the direct work you're doing with them? Why would I do that?
Scott Cytron:That's what he said to me. And I said, well, it's going to help you, you know, gain referrals from them. You can give referrals. You can get referrals. Said, oh, I'm much too busy to do that.
Scott Cytron:I said, so do you eat lunch every day? Well, yeah. He said I said, well, then take take one of your clients to lunch. I said, maybe once a month. Don't have to do it every day, but once a month.
Scott Cytron:Oh, I'm I no. We we can't possibly do that. Well so he was putting up barriers in his own business for not being able to reach out and get referrals, And I think it's really just a simple conversation. It's, you know, hey, Chris. Hey, John.
Scott Cytron:You know, I'm looking for referrals. This is exactly what I'm looking for. It's very specific. If you say, I'm looking for referrals for cut for clients in tax and accounting. That's like giving you an entire library to look through.
Scott Cytron:K? Your entire address book, which is not gonna work, You've got to get very specific. So if you've got a niche, that opens the door right away. So I'm looking for tax and accounting prospects who work in construction who need not only the tax prep piece, but also tax planning. And that's where you can begin to talk about advisory and some of the things that, you know, we push on a regular basis or so.
Chris Picciurro:A great point. I mean, because it's funny, Scott, because, you know, we have and this is not a this is not a commercial for our mastermind group, but we have a peer to peer mastermind group. In the topic, we meet twice a week just for an hour. The and we always have a practice management topic. The topic was, why do sometimes we feel like we're not getting referrals from our clients?
Chris Picciurro:That's the number one place we should be getting them. Right? And sometimes we sometimes clients maybe clients don't wanna give referrals, because they're gonna hoard you. Maybe. I don't know.
Chris Picciurro:But I think that they you know, your good clients understand, that you you do need the lifeblood of your practice. You know, we say, you know, let your best client pick your next client. We always say that. And and and so I took that to heart, and I thought, okay. Well, let me because I, you know, quite frankly, I don't really I get to work from home.
Chris Picciurro:I don't like to go out to do coffee and lunch with people. You know, I just don't like to I'd rather just not do it, to be quite honest. But I challenge myself. I'm like, I'm gonna do this. Right?
Chris Picciurro:So one of our local clients here in Nashville, and our clients are all over the country, but we don't even have a physical office. But we do have some clients in Nashville, decent amount from personal relationships, and I went out to for coffee with one of them, talked to him. We we talked about family. We talked about just stuff. We talked about his situation for about five minutes at the end or less.
Chris Picciurro:Just like, hey. He asked me a couple questions. No problem. I made a couple notes, made sure that the people on our team that need to help him with that item is getting help with. No joke.
Chris Picciurro:Two days later, got a referral from him for a friend of his. That that I think could be a good fit.
Scott Cytron:And I'm not surprised at all. That's all it takes. And it's you know, like I said, I wanna reiterate, they're looking for referrals just as much as you are. If you have a client that says, oh, we're too busy. We we're we're too busy to even answer the phone.
Scott Cytron:You know? Well, there's something not right about that. I mean, who is who's too busy? You know? We do we do a lot of you know, when I do PR work with a client, with what no matter what kind of industry they're in, the first thing we talk about is I ask them a question.
Scott Cytron:Do you wanna be rich, or do you wanna be famous? And they're like, well, what do you mean by that? I don't what do you mean by that? Well, if you wanna be famous, we do PR work for you, and that's more of a publicist's role. So it's an individual.
Scott Cytron:You know, we're publicizing you only. If you wanna be rich, we're publicizing you, but we're also doing your team, your company, the industry, and they're like most people are like, yeah. I just I wanna be rich. I wanna I wanna to be more on the company than me, but there's some that really just prefer to do their own thing. There are we've had clients that have plenty say they have plenty of business.
Scott Cytron:I know they do because I've seen the numbers. Their business is really good, but they still wanna get some extra PR. They wanted to get some extra promotion for themselves, for the people on their team. You know? And that's when we start to work with them on, you know, on the PR side and really, hopefully, get their name out there and people can recognize their experts.
John Tripolsky:Well, Scott, you made on some really good points there a little bit earlier too. Just, you know, the mention of of BNI and networking and just PR and everything, which, by the way, I love that question about kinda giving them the fork in the road. Right? Like, do you wanna be rich and do you wanna be famous? And I I I can almost see this with the number of times that I've asked a similar question of people.
John Tripolsky:They're like, well, if I become rich, don't I become famous? Or if I'm famous, don't I become rich? It's like, it's it's not that easy. But back to what you were talking about with networking and just a a niche and finding, you know, a brand identity and kinda marrying it all together with that is, you know, I can I can speak for a hundred percent? When I first started our agency, I had a, no idea what I was doing.
John Tripolsky:I had zero money to do this. I had a lot of overhead with an office and a team, and we found a group like that. And I'm I'm gonna use my wife as an example here. My wife is a introverted extrovert, and what I mean by that is she is a diehard introvert, but she's an extrovert when she has to be. I mean, to the point of she used to be a radio host in the Metro Detroit area, so you would never know that she wants to do nothing more than, you know, grab a glass of wine, slap on her glasses, some socks, and read a book, and even tell me and the kid of the dog to go away.
John Tripolsky:Like, she wants to do her own thing. But groups like that, and she worked for us is where I'm kinda going with this, is when she found a group like that, it almost forced her to get very comfortable in saying exactly what we were looking for because the nature of that group, right, doesn't let you be broad. It doesn't let you come in as, you know, you gave the example of an attorney. An attorney can't join a group like that, a networking group that's designed in that way and say, oh, well, I'm I'm an attorney. I take any legal, cases or any legal projects.
John Tripolsky:They don't let you. Right? You have to specify because there is a appear in that group that does similar. You kinda walk that line together, which those do very well. And then, Chris, like you mentioned too in the mastermind, that was a really good conversation we had with people.
John Tripolsky:And almost everybody, if I remember right, they really work. Either they didn't feel comfortable with it or they didn't even realize that they didn't feel comfortable asking for referrals from their clients because, yeah, it seems like they hoard them. But, I mean, I've seen it in in my world and other people's where you could be so early in in that relationship with a new client. They're so excited that they found, like, their guy that they do wanna share it with people whether you being their guy or not even realize it. They're, like, proud that they have somebody that's really good, and then they they love sharing it.
John Tripolsky:So that's Yeah. It's good it's good to hear that, you know, you brought up networking groups because that's huge too.
Scott Cytron:Yeah. You know yeah. You know, I was gonna add to that. I've I've been a member of Vistage. I've done that.
Scott Cytron:I was a member of a local networking group. We met every week, Wednesday mornings at 7AM, which nearly killed me in the beginning, then it was like, oh, I really enjoying going to this. There were only 12 of us in the group, but each time we had to bring a guest. And what was so interesting about that group to me is I got up to do my elevator speech every time, and they I'd see them not the I call it the bobble head where they're nodding their head. Okay.
Scott Cytron:Great. Well, then it came from my time to do my my big presentation. Every time they would ask what are the members to do something longer, like ten minutes, fifteen minutes. I did that. The first thing somebody said was, I didn't realize that's what you did because I had very I had visual things to show them.
Scott Cytron:Like, I had magazine covers or I had articles that I had printed up into a PDF or I had, you know, examples of PR campaigns. Like, I've been saying this every week for months, and you didn't realize that. No. We're we need to see it visually and other and and to really understand what that is. Okay.
Scott Cytron:Well, that was my fault. That was my mistake because I wasn't describing it properly. After that, it got better. But, you know, I think what's so interesting about those groups is you absolutely have to let them know what you're doing.
John Tripolsky:Absolutely. And, Chris, maybe this is an example too. Like, I mean, I I don't know if I'm wrong or right with this one, but, you know, we did we just did an episode about kind of marrying, financial advising into a tax practice. Right? So I can almost see that being a case if somebody was in a group like that, and they were, you know, a a what to say, I I I don't know.
John Tripolsky:I don't know. I'm trying to think of the best thing. They're they're a tax professional, say, for example. But they might be in a group like that and say there isn't somebody that does financial advising. They might be so in tune with saying, yep.
John Tripolsky:I do taxes. I do taxes. I do taxes. I do taxes. They forget to even mention that, oh, yeah.
John Tripolsky:We also do financial advising, which, again, you can't really cross that line in some of those groups. But, gosh, if you went in there and said, you know, Chris, your example, you said, you know what? I do taxes. I'm not gonna get into a lot of detail about it, but, yes, I'm looking for veterinary women owned veterinary clinics. I feel like that that, like, etches itself in somebody's mind where they're like, oh, yeah.
John Tripolsky:You you do taxes, but, yes, you work with veterinary clinics that are women owned. And then immediately, their brain kinda goes off and starts thinking, do I know anybody like that? Where if you just say you do taxes, right, they're like, oh, yeah. So does Susan on the corner. So does Mike.
John Tripolsky:So does the guy dressed in the the costume here, you know, running around the corner next to the Burger King, and it just becomes so vague that, you know, you almost for in an industry term, it's like you start to diminish your brand equity because you you're the same as everybody else. Right?
Scott Cytron:Well and I think what's so interesting nowadays, and I know, Chris, you do a lot of this, is the advisory side. And what's so interesting to me is probably twenty five years ago, I was five years into my business. I was already working with an accountant to do my taxes. I was sole proprietor. My mistake, I should have been an s corp, and I had, somebody hammered into me so so many times.
Scott Cytron:Finally, I became one and saved all that money on self employment taxes. It's just ridiculous. But finally did that. But I had this relationship with a CPA firm, and it was somebody I it was a firm I knew when I was at the TSCPA. They were local.
Scott Cytron:And I would say, you know, we get our taxes done every year, and I would say, is there anything else you wanna tell me? And the CPA would always say, well, what is it you wanna know? We did your taxes. You know, it's like, well, you've seen my tax return. You've known me for quite a while now.
Scott Cytron:Is there something you wanna advise me that I should be doing for my business? Well, you know way more about what we do than than than we think, you know, we think we do, so you tell us what you wanna know. What? You know, what? Okay.
Scott Cytron:So that doesn't even make sense. Now fast forward to today, and a CPA or an accountant who is not working with their clients in advisory capacity is going to be out of work because we know the tax return is going to be commoditized. It just is. I mean, that AI is already moving toward that, and I think that's a really good use of AI, you know, the way it's working with with tax return prep. But it's the planning.
Scott Cytron:It's the really having a conversation with with the business owner to say, you know, okay. So did you add I I see, you know, your payroll is increased for tax year '24. How many staff did you add? You know, you would probably already know that, but how many staff did you add, let's just say. And okay.
Scott Cytron:So are you getting the most out of that staff? Well, so all of a sudden, you're an HR director. Right? So you've gotta wear all those hats. You've gotta be you know, say, okay.
Scott Cytron:Are you is your, you know, is your return rate working on adding that other person or adding that new position, are you seeing some benefit from that? And if the answer is, well, no. They're not really busy all the time, and I'm not quite sure what to do with them. Well, then that's a to me, a clear answer. Get rid of that person.
Scott Cytron:Find somebody to take on whatever work that was. But you can see where I'm going with this. In other words, you've gotta have that advisory conversation nowadays as a CPA accountant, even a bookkeeper. You know, a bookkeeper who just does the books is is fine, and there's a lot of business owners who just want that. But wouldn't it be great for that bookkeeper to say, you know, give them one little nugget to say, you know, if you actually invest your money this way, I think you get a greater return on it.
Scott Cytron:You know? Why not?
Chris Picciurro:One of the things you mentioned just kinda thinking about, you know, the going beyond just do cranking out what you're supposed to be doing. So and if you find yourself you're listening to this and you're in tax and accounting professional, and we have bookkeepers listen also or people that do a lot of bookkeeping or payroll. If you we kinda John knows this, like, in our practice, gosh, it might have been ten years ago, maybe eleven, we banished what's called the b word. Now the b word isn't what you think of the b word is like a really bad word. The b word is a four letter word, and I even have problems saying it now, but it's busy.
Chris Picciurro:I don't like that term because when you if you're think you're too busy for something or your clients, hey. How's it going? If you said, oh, we're super busy. What in the heck is that telling your clients? That's telling them, I don't have time for you, and I don't have time for anyone else right now.
Chris Picciurro:That's on you. You designed your practice to do that. So you've got to reanalyze and and tweak things and and, then become more efficient. You know, instead, say, business is great, but we're always taking on some more. What how can we help you?
Chris Picciurro:Just it's that, you know, that that framing of of what you're, how you're speaking with your clients, and then that could lead you to getting more referrals. I wanna go back, you know, because I I mentioned because I you know, I'm gonna walk into we're talking about someone just starting out. I do I was part of BNI, gosh, twenty two years ago. You know, it was a little at this point where I'm at, it's not the best fit for me, but but having a networking group of some type is a really good fit. Yeah.
Chris Picciurro:You know? And and, you know, so getting involved, finding a a group that meets, asking for referrals is important, but also being very specific. Being as specific as you can is very important. So I'm looking for pre I I'm looking for, yeah. I'm looking for I'm looking for people that that invest in real estate and need help with their taxes or tax planning.
Chris Picciurro:Okay. That's I'm looking for someone that owns a real estate brokerage or I'm looking for you know, you can you can get like you said, Scott, get very specific, and that's gonna guide you to, you know, again, let your best client pick your next client. And and if you're and if you're just starting off or if you kinda are a general practitioner, we're not saying go ditch all your clients. What I'm saying is maybe create a separate segment or service if you wanna start implementing tax planning and strategy and saying, hey. We're gonna, you know, we're gonna start rolling out.
Chris Picciurro:Now, Scott, as you know, we're membership based. We're gonna start rolling out a a tax planning service, and, we'd be very interested in if you're interested in that, you know, here's the here's the process and and, and be, you know and as accounts, we can tend to be rigid a little bit. So understand that what you set up today is not what it's gonna be in a month, in two months, three months. My whole my whole sales or client acquisition process changes fluidly based on, based on dashboards and saying, okay. Well, hey.
Chris Picciurro:We're getting a lot of, you know John knows this. Right? We're we're we're having a lot of success here. Let's tweak this process here, and we've changed it now where, I'm kind of an ambassador. I'm talking to people right off the bat about because I'll ask I'll challenge tax professionals.
Chris Picciurro:How quickly do you know if someone could be a good client? Truly. You typically know within ten minutes. That's being generous. Five to ten minutes.
Chris Picciurro:Then why are you wait why are you meeting with people looking at tax trends and doing all this mumbo jumbo quoting people when you think at the end, you know they're not gonna be a good client? Have a ten minute conversation right up front. Have a way to book it that works for them. Have it as a phone call, chat through it, and, okay, I think we should move forward. So that's just, you know, my 2ยข on
Scott Cytron:it.
John Tripolsky:I I
Scott Cytron:think there's a couple of things to take away there. I think that's all great. The you know, COVID killed the in person meeting. It did. I mean, unfortunately, it really did.
Scott Cytron:Now our business did really well during COVID because, again, I've stayed in one reason I've stayed in tax and accounting is it's fairly recessionary proof. So when there's a recession, when there's a downturn, there's always tax stuff going on. You know, right now, we don't know what the current administration's going to be doing with tax moving forward. We think there's gonna be stuff. We just don't know what that is.
Scott Cytron:But COVID killed that, you know, killed that networking meeting, like that coffee meeting you wanna have with somebody once a week. I've seen that go in the opposite direction, of course, that's coming back. One practitioner I know, still schedules she calls them ten minute coffee talks.
Chris Picciurro:Mhmm.
Scott Cytron:And she'll schedule just a ten minute Zoom, with somebody, and she'll reach out. She'll she'll network or they'll network with her. And it's just a ten minute, you know, let me get to know you, kind of like a speed dating thing. Mhmm. You know?
Scott Cytron:And if we think there's some, some cross pollination here, let's talk further. You know? But I think that's that's a really good way of doing that. If you are that, you know, person that doesn't like to get out and meet with people, and there certainly are. I'm, John, I'm just like your wife.
Scott Cytron:I am a you know, I'm very much that way. So I'd will probably prefer to be on the side of a mountain somewhere than being where I am, looking out at very tall buildings, but, this is where I am, and I, you know, I force myself to be an extrovert. I say that, you know, kinda jokingly. People think I'm an extrovert naturally, and it's just really not the case. I'd really I'm the one that wants to go read the book.
John Tripolsky:She she refers to it as it's, it it's the the hardest workout she could get in a day is her trying to be in a meeting with a large group of people and all the attention being on her. I'm like, I could see that. I could see that.
Chris Picciurro:That's tough. Oh, go ahead. I'm sorry, Skye.
Scott Cytron:Yeah. I was just gonna say one thing I learned a long time ago is, really, you've got something to offer. These peep you know, anybody you're meeting with, you've got something really valid to offer, and that's an expert opinion about something. If you didn't, you wouldn't be having the meeting in the first place. You wouldn't be able to set up the meeting.
Scott Cytron:So when you look at it that way, even though you're an introvert, which I know a lot of financial people are, make time for those things. Get out, you know, get those referrals, meet with people, join a group. Doesn't have to be a large group. It could be a small group. It could be something once a month, you know, at at a you know, for lunch or whatever the case is.
Scott Cytron:Just find find your find your, find your place and do it and, you know, like, meet ups are are a great place for that. Now I don't know. Some meetups are greater than others. It depends on your your niche or what you wanna do, but that certainly is a good place to start as well.
Chris Picciurro:Right. And and if you're not if you are introverted and I'm not necessarily introverted. I just don't really feel like putting pants and a real shirt on and going and meeting people. Hopefully, my I you know? One option is which I've used a ton, is or use videos.
Chris Picciurro:You know, I've started doing this. If you've got some good if if you're looking to to to grow your business and get some new really quality clients, pick your best five clients out. You can use Loom or something. Loom's got a free subscription. Record yourself a four to five minute video and send it to them.
Chris Picciurro:Talking about, hey. Yeah. I know I hope your year is off to a good start. You know, we just sent you know, we're looking forward to preparing your tax return. I see some opportunities for you, tax planning wise later on this year.
Chris Picciurro:We are taking on some new clients since you I really enjoy working with you. Our team really enjoys working with you. I thought I'd let you know that. And if you know anyone that does, please let me know. Now you're not the spotlight's not on you.
Chris Picciurro:You know? And and that's a way kinda in this non in non face to face meeting environment to feel personal personalized stuff.
John Tripolsky:So I
Scott Cytron:think that's a great idea.
Chris Picciurro:I think
John Tripolsky:Scott, you're definitely right. I mean, COVID COVID shifted the, the activities. Right? Like, you it was almost if you didn't do in person, a lot of people kinda looked at, like, oh, well, Zoom is Zoom is kind of a a shortcut or a or a cop out. Right?
John Tripolsky:Where now I find it more often if you try to schedule an in person meeting with somebody, sometimes they're annoyed by it. They're like, oh, what what? Like but other people love it. Right? And, you know, I know we I know we only have a couple more minutes left really on this specific topic, and we'll have to we'll have to have another discussion with you too.
John Tripolsky:But there's just so much stuff out there. Right? So many we'll we'll say so many tools, technology, AI, all these things that, obviously, you can get kind of overwhelmed with everything and all the opportunities to do everything around marketing and just everything there or where I think trying to find, yes, where you're comfortable with, but also, you know, where you're not comfortable. Like, if you're not comfortable getting out there and doing some networking, I can I can say this from the marketing side, right, of talking to clients in the past where sometimes they they kinda live in their world so much that they never have to say what they do until they're forced to say it? Like, say there's a an economic downturn and their industry is really hit hard, and then they're like, oh, crap.
John Tripolsky:Now I need to market. They don't even know what their brand voice is. Right? So, I mean, not saying my advice too, but I'd love to hear your opinion for tax professionals specifically. Right?
John Tripolsky:Like, it's been pretty sweet for a little bit, and it's you know, the the clients seem to kinda roll in a lot for people. And sometimes firms have more clients than they know to do with, but then other ones are kinda struggling to find their niche or they're just getting into it, maybe leaving a larger firm going out on their own, kinda left to their own devices where the earlier on, right, you find out what your messaging is, what your brand voice is, who you're after, kinda the better. And going through those networking exercises, we'll call it, kinda forces you to define how you say that. And then say, for example, you go to run a ad campaign or do anything, you know a little bit more what you wanna say instead of why do taxes, what else do you need to know about about me? Right?
John Tripolsky:Like, do you do you agree with that, or have
Scott Cytron:you seen that in the past or no? Well, I have definitely. Yeah. And I, you know, I always say the best time to market yourself is when you're the busiest because you really feel good about what you're doing. And if if I encounter a prospect or a client that says, again, I'm just too busy to get out there and do anything right now, but you're really not.
Scott Cytron:I mean, you know, people who say they're too busy, I can't possibly call you back until a week from Wednesday. Really? I mean, that's that's just ludicrous. It's it's it's ridiculous. You know, make time.
Scott Cytron:You people it's all you know, I you know, I think it all boils down to priorities. It's a priority if you're gonna make time to do something because you're going to get something out of that. I think that that's a very key thing, and I you know, CPAs ask me all the time, you know, how much time should I be spending on social media? Because social media is a way to market yourself. We know that.
Scott Cytron:Right? So I say, if you could just do ten minutes every morning, focus on probably LinkedIn more than anything else, but you wanna focus on the social media where your clients are. So, like, if you are looking for hairdressers or looking for a salon, for example, like we talked about, Chris, you know, they're probably on Instagram. They're not gonna be on x. I mean, forget x.
Scott Cytron:They're not gonna be there. They may have a Facebook page that they use to set appointments or they could sell something on there. But the reality is they're probably gonna be on Instagram, so go where they're gonna be. You know? And, again, you could use hashtags, and you could use a lot of ways to get them to come follow you and, you know, do video, do postings, do a lot of stuff.
Scott Cytron:But spend about ten minutes a day. I always say do it in the morning when you're fresh. You come in, you get it done. As far as CPAs on LinkedIn, I always say, you know, find groups to to join, be part of, comment on something. Just don't work.
Scott Cytron:Just don't sit there and not do anything and not comment on something. Be an active participant, and people will start recognizing you as that individual who probably knows what they're talking about, and then they'll start connecting to you. But you can also reach out and connect to people. So why not? I mean, the LinkedIn is free unless you have the super duper version.
Scott Cytron:I've never had that, and I've never missed having it. So to me, do it. It's free. Why not?
Chris Picciurro:Oh, absolutely. I think that's great advice. And and, you know, as we wrap it up, Scott, and, gosh, there's a lot of other things we could talk about. But, you know, let's talk let let's finish up by can you give someone two one, two, or three just kinda tidbits? You just gave us one on the LinkedIn.
Chris Picciurro:I I agree. Just starting to comment and and network there. But maybe a couple more tips for tax, tax and accounting pros, as far as to to to kind of build telling their story. And then finally, you know, are you are you taking on new clients? Are you are you are you I know you work with the Intuits and and, some amazing companies out in the world, but are you, taking on new projects and clients, in your private practice?
Scott Cytron:Always taking them on. Yeah. Capacity is not an issue. If because in a PR agency or a firm like we have, you can always grow by adding either adding staff, adding, part timers, or adding contractors. So, yes, absolutely.
Scott Cytron:But they'll always get my brand of things. In other words, I'm not handing them off to a junior who where they're never gonna see me again. They're always working with me and the team. So absolutely always taking on new clients and always wanting to have those conversations because I think they're interesting conversations to have. The work may not be compatible or we may pass or they may pass on us, but I'd love to have those conversations always.
Scott Cytron:Back to the tips, I think one thing I would recommend is definitely be authentic. And when I say that, I mean really be true to your story. Don't be something don't be put on just because you think your prospect or your client wants you to be that way. You know, Chris, you're a great example. John, I don't know you that well, but I'd like to.
Scott Cytron:You guys are great example of really, really saying what you mean. Like, you don't wanna get dressed up every day and go into an office. You wanna be what you are. I have an office simply because it was a way to save the relationship at home. Otherwise, it would have killed each other.
Scott Cytron:So, you know yeah. So, I mean, that that's really why I have an office, and my son is here with me too, so I get to see him every day. But, you know, what I say is, you know, really be authentic. Be true to yourself. If you don't wanna take on certain work, don't do it.
Scott Cytron:You know, if you really wanna go with your with your, your gut feel on on a prospect or with a client. The other advice I I would give is if you're a tax professional is don't think you have to do everything at once as far as marketing goes. Find the find two or three things to do and do them slowly, but do them well. And what I mean by that is there's a lot to do nowadays with marketing. There's social media.
Scott Cytron:There's blogs. There's writing for websites, writing for your clients, your managed service providers. There is, paid ads. There's pay per click still. That's still a thing.
Scott Cytron:There's getting you know, wanting to be in the on the first page of your of search when you search on Google. There's all these things going on. There's speaking. There's presentations. There's conferences.
Scott Cytron:Find two or three of those things and tackle them, set yourself some goals, some short term goals, maybe some long term, but I think long term goals get misfired. I think you really need to look at short term and say, okay. In the next six months, I'm going to write three articles. I'm going to try to network with 10 people, and I'm going to, write I'm gonna do something else, whatever that something else is because that's attainable. If you do a goal that's not attainable, you're gonna feel like you failed.
John Tripolsky:Excellent. Excellent advice. And the good thing about that too is that goes across all industries and all professionals, not even necessarily just, just tax professionals. So, Scott, we're gonna have to have you back on, man. I know there's a there's a million other topics I think we can, touch on, and, you know, it it's nice sometimes to have somebody on here that also can't file a tax return.
John Tripolsky:So that makes me and you. We just we'd leave it to guys like Chris. So, and thank you. Honestly, thank you and, you know, for making the time for us. I know you and Chris have known each other for a bit, so it's it's great to have a conversation with you as well.
Scott Cytron:Well, I appreciate you having me. Absolutely. And and, again, now we're putting the hook
John Tripolsky:in you so everybody knows it. We're gonna have to have you back on. So it's out there in the in the ecosphere, so we have to make it happen.
Scott Cytron:So Sounds great.
John Tripolsky:And if anybody who's listening to this has those ideas, anything you wanna hear, send them over to us. We'd love to hear it. Join those online communities. We'll put some links here in the show notes as well. Just put yourself out there.
John Tripolsky:Like, as Scott had mentioned and we had a had a discussion around, the best thing you can do for yourself is just get out there, practice, refine your message, and tell people who you're looking for. So as always, we'll see everybody back here again on the mister r show.
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