Ep. 23 | The Future of The CPA Profession
Download MP3Welcome to the Mr. R Show, presented by the MRR Institute. This podcast is designed specifically for tax professionals looking to scale and modernize their practice by maximizing revenue through resources. Join us as we explore expert strategies, innovative tools, and actionable advice to help you navigate the evolving landscape of the tax industry. Whether you're aiming to grow your business or enhance your client experience, you're in the right place. Now let's get to the show and transform your practice together.
John Tripolsky:Hey, everybody, and welcome back to the Mr. R show, obviously, brought to you by the MRR Institute. So as anybody knows, has listened to this show in the past, or somebody told you you need to check it out, you're in a great place. Right? And I'm not just talking about this podcast.
John Tripolsky:I'm talking about the fact that you are either already a tax professional or you have these giant aspirations of becoming the best one around, which, by the way, you're gonna hear a little bit about from our guest and my co host will probably say something about this. It's actually a pretty, frankly, a pretty damn cool profession to be in. It's not like what you've probably heard back in the day with let's think here, White out pens, loud keyboards, fax machines, and pocket protectors. I don't think any of those are really involved. Maybe the the phone thing, but we'll get to it as we dive into it.
John Tripolsky:But I guess I should probably welcome back my cohost, Chris Bacchiro. Actually, I should say Chris Bacchiro, CPA. How are you, sir? How are you doing?
Chris Picciurro, CPA:I'm doing great. It's always fun to be back on the show with you. I'm so excited about our guest today. You and I really, really like him, and I I I I would almost say John's got a man crush on you, Bob. But that's alright.
Chris Picciurro, CPA:We'll we'll digress.
John Tripolsky:Hey. You know you know what? You know what? I probably say that is because I love the fact, and I'll let you you guys get into it more, is that he's not actually from your guys' world originally. Like, he me and him have more in common, I think, than a lot of people.
John Tripolsky:So marketing, I think, is was his background a little bit. So we'll get into that story because that's a whole another thing too, which, by the way, that does lead to fact too. Everybody can always transition into this. You don't have to stay where you're at now, but no more hints or no more clues.
Chris Picciurro, CPA:Right.
John Tripolsky:Chris, who who's who's actually on here with us besides your your handsome self?
Chris Picciurro, CPA:Well, good good segue, John. And, yes, you we we are gonna talk about the future of the tax profession in gen in in talk about tax professionals in general, but also in general, also specifically, CPAs. And because there's there's a lot of them out there, but not not enough. And, as most of the listeners know, I'm I'm originally from Michigan, and I although, you know, moved moved down to Tennessee about nine years ago, but still very involved with the Michigan Association of CPAs. I am so excited to have the Michigan Association of c Michigan Association of CPAs president and CEO with us today, Bob Doyle, who is just a joy to be around.
Chris Picciurro, CPA:We could you know, I I really mean that, and, we've really enjoyed getting to know him over the last few years. And, Bob, thank you so much for joining us today.
Bob Doyle:Well, thanks for having me, Chris, John. That's quite the introduction. I'm, thrilled to be here, and thanks for the invitation.
John Tripolsky:You know, if we added any more to the intro, you'd you'd send us to your agent, and they would pass along your speaker fee. I'm sure. So
Bob Doyle:Yeah. Don't worry. They'll get in contact with you.
John Tripolsky:I'm sure. Well, don't worry. I won't answer. I won't answer that one.
Chris Picciurro, CPA:Sure. We'll be in contact with those people. Well, Bob, yeah, thanks for joining us. You have such a great pulse of our industry in your breath of fresh air coming from another industry, into the into the public accounting, profession. You interact with with, we'll we'll get into how many different CPA groups, but interact from those solopreneurs, what we, small firm practitioners, solo practitioners, all the way up to people in the, in the large multinational publicly traded accounting firms in an industry, in an academia.
Chris Picciurro, CPA:So, you know, a lot of times people think being a CPA like John said, quite frankly, you're sitting with a pocket protector. You know, I'm so old that when I started my the lease for my for my copier was more money than my rent because he had to we had to print everything out. And but, you know, those those those times have changed quite a bit. But, yeah, Bob, tell us a little about your salt per background, and then we'll dive into how you connect with MICPA.
Bob Doyle:Sure. Yeah. And like you said, I mean, that I'm in a a wonderful position. I'm blessed and honored to be the, present CEO and leader of the Michigan Association of CPAs or MICPA as we call it. And and you're right.
Bob Doyle:I did not come from the accounting profession, but it's certainly been a joy over these last five years to, be a part of it and kinda have those conversations with, anyone from the multinational CPA firms down to the solo or small practitioner in every town in Michigan, across the government, across the corporate, and everyone in between. And and then, of course, our educators. And, actually, we have an educators conference this Friday that I'll be interacting with our accounting educators. But, I started actually as John mentioned, my previous position was in marketing communications and advocacy, working in the association world in actually the robotics industry and robotics and automation in industry, which is kinda how I got into, accounting from one association to the other. But before then, I was an engineer.
Bob Doyle:So and I guess well, I I should say I'm still an engineer. Right? You're always an engineer. And I got my bachelor's degree in environmental engineering and worked in that field in the automotive industry for some time before I kinda changed careers. And that's one thing I I have the pleasure of talking to a lot of students, both college students and high school students.
Bob Doyle:I talk about the wonderful world of accounting, but I also tell them, you know, you never know where your career could go, and and I'm certainly an example of that.
Chris Picciurro, CPA:Wow. So that's cool. And and are you do you originally hail from the Mitten State?
Bob Doyle:I am. Yeah. I was born and raised in Grand Ledge, Michigan, just West of Lansing. I went to, Michigan Tech up in the Upper Peninsula, the the beauty of beautiful part of, Michigan, which was wonderful to be there. And then my first job was with General Motors, which brought me down to the Metro Detroit area, and I've been here ever since.
Chris Picciurro, CPA:Wow. That's pretty cool. I actually, my brother-in-law and sister-in-law went to Michigan Tech, so they Okay. Yes. And they're obviously I shouldn't say obviously, but they're both engineers, or that's what their background is.
Chris Picciurro, CPA:So so so there was a interest I mean, pretty big leap going into the the public accounting sector in as far as going from one association to the other. And what, you know, what were some of the things that drew you to accounting?
Bob Doyle:Sure. So, you know, one of my favorite parts that I was really excited about when I had the opportunity to, pursue this position, you know, my predecessor was had been in this position for a long time, was CEO for twenty three years, and so it was a great opportunity to, may perhaps enhance change. And, you know, for me to kinda come from outside the profession was certainly a good opportunity to look at the the model, the strategy, and how we could improve things and perhaps change things moving forward. And and, frankly, when I I started right before COVID hit. Mhmm.
Bob Doyle:And so, you know, obviously, it was a a very challenging time, a lot of unknowns. But, also, you know, if I look back on it now is a great time for us as an association to really evaluate how we're there to serve our members, to learn from them, and ensure we're providing the best services, the the best resources, the best tools for all CPAs in Michigan to be an essential resource for their clients and their companies. And and here we are five years later, and I feel like, you know, we're we're doing that, but we're continuing to to do as much as we can to serve the profession, especially with the the drastic, acceleration of change that we've experienced in in accounting.
Chris Picciurro, CPA:Absolutely. And and so I obviously, what you know, I'm speaking from a as a CPA, but there are a lot of amazing organizations. You know, there's there's national associations for enrolled agents and and state and local associations also for CPAs and enrolled agents. And there there are other tax professionals, but I really look at CPAs and enrolled agents as as the bar for tax in their tax preparation industry. Obviously, CPAs can do different, you know, different type of activities as well from attestation.
Chris Picciurro, CPA:But with so when you moved into this role okay. Tell can you tell us a little bit about the m MICPA as far as its membership? How how you you know, how how do you even because I think this is super important for someone that is running a practice. Time management is a differentiator between, people that that run their practice and people that have their practices run them. So how how did you even step in, and how do you serve all these yeah.
Chris Picciurro, CPA:How many firms and how many members, and how do you even start to to jump into something like that?
Bob Doyle:Yeah. For sure. I mean, so we have about close to 17,000 members across the state. That is licensed CPAs, registered CPAs, and then a lot of then others, like educators, perhaps some we have non CPAs who are who are members as well, and then students and CPA candidates. And so, really, we we start we look at it from the college student even into high school talking about accounting.
Bob Doyle:We actually use our foundation for this, the Michigan Accountancy Foundation, where we bring students on the college campuses, talk with them about accounting, all the great opportunities. And then we see them go into their career and become a CPA candidate and then a CPA. And then wherever they are in their career, we're here to meet them. And, you know, kinda perhaps that traditional route of you going to a public accounting perhaps for a a large firm, medium sized firm, even a smaller firm. We wanna be able to help our members provide those tools and resources, and that's really what our mission and vision is to serve.
Bob Doyle:It's to serve our members, the CPA profession, and then in turn, the public, the clients, the the businesses that they all serve. We do it through three ways. We do it through advocacy. We do it through collaboration, and we do it through education because that really is our purpose to be that resource for any CPA in the state of Michigan. And and like you said, we have a wonderful network.
Bob Doyle:You know, every state has a CPA association or CPA society as they're called. I I have a great network with all the other CEOs of the state societies, and they range from the largest state society in in California Mhmm. Down to the smallest in Alaska Right. And everywhere in between. And we collaborate.
Bob Doyle:We get together often. And then also, as you mentioned, like, AICPA and and, other organizations, other, CPA firm groups that that we I get the chance to collaborate and network a lot too. There's a lot of people all working together to, you know, to enhance the future of the profession. We talk a lot about it in the MRR Institute, collaboration over competition. I can't stress that enough.
Bob Doyle:You know, I I think that that's I've really tried to connect with lots of other CPs, especially in
Chris Picciurro, CPA:my niche, which is real estate. There's a not that many big players out there, I guess, you would say that focus on that, and I I try to connect with all of them. If not all of them wanted to connect back, but most of them do. You know? It's it's Yeah.
Chris Picciurro, CPA:And that that's a good thing. We gotta sharpen each other. So you made a great point about starting and then we're gonna talk about people transitioning to this industry as a secondary profession, but the pipeline. Right? The the those students.
Chris Picciurro, CPA:I know there's some there's there's different ways now that we're trying to allow people multiple avenues to become a CPA and and and that sort of stuff. But I guess the listener of this podcast is gonna be typically some run typically someone running their accounting or tax business. For those people, what are younger people looking for as far as opportunity? Because I think there's a big disconnect in in in what we wanted I'd say we. I'm I'm just turned 50.
Chris Picciurro, CPA:So what what we were looking for was, like, trying to make as much money as we can right away. Right? I don't think everyone's like that anymore. What are these, you know, folks looking for as an opportunity?
Bob Doyle:Well, I I think a a spirit of belonging is very important to them, a firm that or a company that feels like that they are part of, that they can have an impact on. I think we're finding more and more, particularly, younger professionals, those coming out of college and and, looking to get into accounting. So that's a key to, be able to offer that sense, that culture, that welcoming culture, that that spirit. And, but then also, like, we talk about pipeline. I mean, that's pretty almost a lot of what I do is is talking about pipelining pipeline, thinking about the future of the profession.
Bob Doyle:There's been a lot of work done over the last few years. And as some people may have may have heard this now, push for offering an additional pathway to CPA licensure, and and some states are are in different ways of of advancing that. So, Michigan, we're I'm happy to announce that we're close to introducing our bill, you know, as because it's the law, you know, it's a licensed profession. Every all 55 jurisdictions need to change their rules or their law in a way to offer that additional pathway. For those that may not be familiar with it, the so right now, in the 55 jurisdictions, you need a hundred and fifty hours of college credit plus one year of experience plus, of course, taking all four parts and then passing the CPA exam.
Bob Doyle:So the additional pathway now that's been approved, by both the AICPA and NASBA and the National Association of State Boards of Accountancy through language in the UAA or the Uniform Accountancy Act that was this just happened a few weeks ago, now offers the additional pathway of a bachelor's degree with an accountancy emphasis. You, of course, have to have that accountancy background, so basically a bachelor's degree in accounting, plus two years of experience, plus, of course, passing all four parts of the CPA exam. So we hope that that will help reduce that barrier that, some students may have been facing when going to accounting when they could choose between, I could go into marketing or finance or something and get a bachelor's degree and start working rather than have to stay for that extra year. Right. And, so, we're planning on on getting that bill introduced soon and hopefully passed through the Michigan legislature so that way and signed by the governor so that we can hopefully start licensing CPAs with a bachelor's degree, in 2026?
Chris Picciurro, CPA:Well, I think that, you know, I've been trying to get involved with the Tennessee Society down here and just our last day on the hill, which is in March. That was one of the hot items, talking about. And and and honestly, I think that I don't know how to how to put this, but I think a year of work experience, you're gonna learn a lot more how to be a good great CPA than one more year of being in a in in a classroom. Doesn't mean you shouldn't invest for your masters. But
Bob Doyle:Yeah. And that's and that's what we've heard from from our members, particularly our our our even our small practitioners who maybe this will give an opportunity to hire more, be more competitive with I I don't wanna say just a bachelor's, but with with the bachelor's degree rather than staying for the additional year for the master's. And we are keeping that pathway, like you mentioned. I mean, there's still gonna be students who wanna wanna go and stay for that master's degree. I mean, there's some great masters of accounting programs out there.
Bob Doyle:K. But this gives an additional pathway to hopefully welcoming more Michigan CPAs.
Chris Picciurro, CPA:Mhmm. Absolutely. I mean, we we definitely need it. It it all get trickles all the way down into high school and middle school and financial awareness. I mean, that's and and and I think that understanding the different things that CPAs can do in general, it's not just tax preparation.
Chris Picciurro, CPA:There's so many different things.
Bob Doyle:It's such And that's
Chris Picciurro, CPA:That that go ahead. I'm sorry. Go ahead. Well, yeah. I was gonna segue into yeah.
Chris Picciurro, CPA:What what other things are you seeing? I know, like, the federal government, a lot of who they're hiring on the forensic side or on on I know that law enforcement loves to have CPAs on their team for, financial crimes and, investigations and that sort of stuff. Yeah. I think that's one
Bob Doyle:of the things that we try to, demystify that. That, first of all, a lot of high school students, they don't even know what a CPA is. So first of all, let's introduce that concept. Or even if they do or if they understand the field of accounting, it's not just, you know, handwriting, spreadsheets, sitting in a cubicle all day. And and then the other thing, the misnomer that we also always hear from students is, well, I can't go into accounting because I I don't like math or I'm not good at math.
Bob Doyle:Well, guess what? You don't need to be good at math to be a good accountant. I mean, as long as you know Excel and, you know, the software is there for you. But if you like working with people, if you like helping people, if you like like, usually, when I ask students, like, just accounting, they just love the balancing things. Right?
Bob Doyle:I mean, if it just makes sense to them. I was like, well, guess what? This is a fantastic career to get started in, and you could have your whole career in. I mean, it and but that could range to go into a public accounting. You could go in then go into corporate.
Bob Doyle:You could work for a nonprofit. You could go into a government. You could you could be an educator. You could start your own business and be an entrepreneur. I know a lot of your listeners are are entrepreneurs, and that's one thing that actually excites me most about this profession.
Bob Doyle:I'm seeing more and more younger CPAs who have gotten some experience, and now they're hanging their own shingle and going out there creating their own firms and doing it the way they wanna do it and killing it. Killing it. And that's I see a a fantastic future for those. You know, not only, yeah, maybe you focus on on, tax preparation, but it's a more full gamut of client advisory services. This isn't just your transactional CPA anymore that you see once a year.
Bob Doyle:This is the CPA that is really embedded into their client's business. They do it through advisory, tax planning. They do it through his perhaps fractional CFO. They do their books. I mean, they are so engaged with their clients that they're indispensable to them.
Bob Doyle:And so that's really where I see the future of of the profession, especially for for smaller practitioners.
Chris Picciurro, CPA:Absolutely. We're finding it in our we have some peer to peer mastermind groups that John and I administer and we're members of that a lot of younger people in it. And, you know, they're just dying to just figure out a process and then understand and then follow that process. But under they're learning that, you know, CPAs are very, very and enrolled agents also, like you are so trusted by your clients for things way beyond, you know, just a tax return. Think about like who's your most trusted person in your life?
Chris Picciurro, CPA:And maybe it's your parent, maybe it's a My parents, I'm very, I've been very close to my whole life. Sometimes I ask them for advice on things they have no idea about because I trust them. Maybe I just want to. Right. So you are that trust or resource for your clients.
Chris Picciurro, CPA:And, and yeah, you could, we talk about it all the time. Your, your practice is going to run how you engineered it. So you're an engineer, right? So if we hear these practitioners complaining about the same things over and over again, it's like, well, you engineered that. So, so let's reengineer it and make it what you want it, to be.
Chris Picciurro, CPA:So, yeah, that is and it's interesting with the with the people coming into the profession, the younger people. Nowhere when you we were talking about the spirit of the organization, the culture of the organization where we worried about, like, how much am I going to make right this second? Obviously we need to pay reasonable comp, know, compensation and opportunity, but, you know, that's that then, and which leads me into one of the challenges here, is that we do have, unfortunately and and a lot of people it's funny. A lot some of my friends that aren't accountants are like, man, isn't that a good thing that seventy five percent of CPAs are expected to retire in the next fifteen years? And I'm like, no.
Chris Picciurro, CPA:It's really not. Especially if you are someone and let's face it. You know, there's a lot of mature age people that twenty five years ago when they started their practice thought there's gonna be a there's gonna be a gold a leprechaun in a in a, you know, bucket of gold when they they could sell their practice to someone. Yep. And if you got that much less people in our pipeline in a big retirement cliff, then you've got to that's not gonna be there.
Chris Picciurro, CPA:Sure. That's not necessarily a good thing. Right. Because now we have people that are underserved, and and we have less people sitting for for the CPA exam. So less people going in for accounting degrees.
Chris Picciurro, CPA:And I don't wanna bear you know, paint this totally grim picture, but we've gotta and that's what I love what you're doing. It starts from the beginning. Like, obviously, you're serving your members, but you've gotta almost like you're recruiting an athlete. Of course, there's a transfer portal now, but, you know, recruiting starts, you know, when they're younger. Right?
Chris Picciurro, CPA:And when the sophomore, junior, college.
Bob Doyle:So I'm doing the reverse trans transfer portal because, you know, those students who think who think they wanna go into a finance, I tell them, you know what? Let's transfer into accounting. Because when I tell them, if if you go into finance, you can't you can't go into accounting once you graduate. But accounting is a great base. If you wanna go into finance later, you can go into finance, but you can't go the opposite way.
Bob Doyle:You can't get a bachelor I mean, I guess I shouldn't say can. There's you can still go back and and get your accounts, your requirements, but it's a much easier transition to start in accounting and then go in all these different directions. And that's what we encourage students to do for sure. And I think too, and, you know, going back to, you know, the in kind of that traditional pathway of a college student, you know, I and I I think the you know, a lot of especially bigger universities tend to push, you know, the big firms and which, believe me, could be is a fantastic pathway for a lot of students. There's also a lot of students that just aren't cut out for a big firm who might fit great into a medium sized firm or a smaller firm.
Bob Doyle:And and I know that's when especially when I talk to our small firm practitioners or, you know, we're gonna have our small firm practitioners conference here in a couple months. I'm looking forward to that. You know, that that's been a challenge, I know, is finding talent, recruiting talent. And so I hope this will help, like, you know, not just with the bachelor's degree pathway, and then they can come, you know, start working. And perhaps they wanna live in in a smaller town or something like that and and be closer to family or whatever.
Bob Doyle:I I really think this is an opportunity for that as well because there's there are fantastic small firms all across Michigan who, again, had are serving a huge need, especially as some, you know, the effect of of private equity on some of these larger firms as they continue to get bigger and bigger. These small small firms are gonna get be even more and more important to serving the need in their communities for their for their small businesses. Heck, even bigger businesses. You know? So so, yeah, that's that's another thing that I'm I'm really excited about that, hopefully, this pathway and and these, you know, future CPAs will end up in these fantastic firms that they have great work life balance.
Bob Doyle:You know, I know a lot that we live in beautiful Michigan in the summer. It's it's starting to become really nice here. They don't work very hard in the summer, and that that's a pretty nice, that's a pretty nice place place to be when you're when you're in Michigan and not working very hard on your boat or on the golf course.
John Tripolsky:And, Bob, I would be completely remiss, and I apologize if one of us brought it up before and I missed it. But I love your your definition of CPA, obviously, but then also the way you present it. Right? Like, what CPA means to you or at least at these events, which is great. But then also too in that, you know, I I run into a lot of people at the events that you guys have put on and other ones, some of the national ones.
John Tripolsky:And it's really interesting to me where some people go into a conversation like, yeah. You know, I've been doing this for a while. It's okay, you know, regarding, you know, being a tax professional, but they really enjoy, like, that they're a business owner, that they're they're doing it. It's theirs, and just how the two of those kinda merge together. So I think that might add to a little bit of what you said.
John Tripolsky:Right? It's like, don't have to be like, I am all about the numbers, and I don't care about anything else, and I'm so good at math, and this is what I do. I'm a mathematician. I just happen to do taxes. But, like, maybe walk us through, like, what the makeup of kind of a, quote, unquote, modern CPA, kinda looks like a little bit more.
John Tripolsky:Right? Too like, do you do you find people maybe coming out of college or are they younger? Are they older? Like, what what maybe are their backgrounds a little bit? Or, you know, what's their does their passion really lie in the numbers?
John Tripolsky:Or, you know, just I know we spoke about it a little bit, but Yeah. Kind of a twofold. So what what's your definition of CPA, I think, is a great place to start with and then that question.
Bob Doyle:Well, you know what CPA stands for. Right?
John Tripolsky:I didn't until you said it, actually. The coolest profession around. And you need to be wearing your sunglasses on a stage.
Bob Doyle:If we were on video, I would have my sunglasses right now.
John Tripolsky:But And your shoe and your custom what are they? Nikes? Is that what you have?
Chris Picciurro, CPA:Air Force one. Yeah. Everybody Yeah. Everybody who's listening to this.
Bob Doyle:My my Air Force one, my sunglasses, and we are all in. And and other state societies have known us too. Can't say with that we invented this by any means, but it really I it's a I think it's a mindset. It is. It's it's a cool opportunity for your career.
Bob Doyle:And, and I wear the Nikes because, fewer and fewer students know who Phil Knight is, but that the the recent movie helped, but I always say say but everyone knows Nike, one of the most recognizable brands in the world, that Nike swoosh. And Phil Knight, the founder of Nike, guess how he started his career? He was a CPA. So that's why I tell and that's why I wear my Nike Air Force Ones. I just got a new pair, actually.
Bob Doyle:And, and they say, am I CPA in the back? Because we are the brand. I mean, we are we as in, like, not only the state societies, but all of our members of the brand. That's why we encourage our members, hey. When you have an opportunity to mentor a student, talk to a a student at a, you know, a a work function, a chamber event, a family function even, tell them about your career.
Bob Doyle:Tell them and let's not talk about, oh, you know, I I work eighty hours a week, during tax season, and I like it. And first of all, that's a lie. No one likes working eighty hours a week. And b, that's just not how it like, if you wanna have a a well run culture that people wanna stay at, you can't make them work eighty hours a week anymore. Yes.
Bob Doyle:Are there times of busyness? Yeah. There are. Of course. And there should be.
Bob Doyle:In in any career, there are times of where you're you're might be working more than, you know, than the traditional forty hour work week, if you will. But there's also times, like I said, of where it's it's great to I know a lot of firms who don't work any Friday between Memorial Day and Labor Day. You know? That that's a that's a great, place place to work when you have every Friday off. You know?
Bob Doyle:And, so so, yeah, I I think, you know, more and more, people are getting that. And and as as I mentioned, the younger CPAs who either work for a firm or are starting their own firms, they enjoy that flexibility. And yeah, it's not all about the numbers. Really is being an embedded part of your client, in your client's business. And I think that's when I ask people, what's, what are they most like about it?
Bob Doyle:How they're helping their clients be successful. And that allows then us to be successful. And that's, that's really what it's all about. Know? And I once, not naming any names, but I once, had had a comment from a from a practitioner who his client mentioned that he had a nice brand new, you know, pickup truck.
Bob Doyle:And he was like, wow. That's quite a nice new kind of expensive pickup truck you got there. And wow. You're getting paid a lot for that for that, that truck. He said, if I'm driving a rusty vehicle, you should be worried.
Bob Doyle:You know? So, you know, that that's how CPAs are successful because they're helping their their clients and their businesses be successful.
John Tripolsky:I love that. And, I mean and and Chris, me and him have talked about this. Actually did a podcast last week on the teaching tax flow podcast that kinda gave a little bit of an overview of the landscape of, you know, the tax prep industry is what we refer to it on that more for the taxpayers than it was specifically for any CPAs or tax pros. But I I love seeing that as as more of a taxpayer than I will ever be a tax pro. Let's be honest.
John Tripolsky:You know? I as I always say, I love being the dumbest person in the room, at least on these shows when it comes to tax. It's okay. I take pride in that, being the marketing guy. But I really true I mean, I see so much value in that.
John Tripolsky:Just finding finding a person who's passionate about helping people maybe first, then in running a business or, you know, if they work for a firm. And then the accountancy tax side of things coming second or third in that list. Right? Because you can't really ingrain that in somebody if they don't have it. Right?
John Tripolsky:Like, you can't go up to somebody and say, you know what? You're a great accountant. You're you are a fantastic CPA, but you really should care about people. And they'd probably think like, okay. Cool.
John Tripolsky:Like, thanks for telling me that. But if it's ingrained in somebody where they really truly care and they can see, a, the value that they're bringing to it, but just the impact that they're having on people's lives through something like this, it's huge. Right? I mean, there's so much trust that people are putting in their CPA or or their tax professional. It's incredible.
John Tripolsky:It's like the same as probably my my mom would say or my wife even with, like, their hairdresser. Hairdresser. Like, they know everything about them. They're probably not sharing their social number with them, I'd hope, but, you know, it it is what
Chris Picciurro, CPA:it is. John, you always have to bring up a hair a hair topic, don't you?
John Tripolsky:You know what? It's I think I'm just used to it at this point. You know, being that you have such a these, you know, glowing locks of knowledge from you. But
Bob Doyle:Yeah. That
John Tripolsky:but, Bob, it's awesome, man. Like, I know I know we always talk about that, but it it is great to see you guys, you know, leading kinda leading the the path with that. But then also, like you mentioned, other organizations are doing it. You know, you're not taking all the credit for
Chris Picciurro, CPA:Yeah.
John Tripolsky:Really pushing it, but you guys are doing a great job. Right? And and I think that's when you see it.
Bob Doyle:Yeah. We wanna help too. I mean, that's a lot of the learning we offer is, know, CPA may be great at tax law and helping their clients with their taxes and everything, but they also, if they have their own business or they want to own a business, how do they run it? And, you know, that that can that can be hard and overwhelming certainly at times. So what can we do to offer how best the resources, the tools, how to build a great culture, how to be a great leader, how to you know, your HR processes.
Bob Doyle:And probably the biggest is your tech stack. You know, how do you utilize the software, the tools, the resources, now AI? I mean, there's so much out there, and, frankly, it can be over overwhelming at times, I'm sure, and certainly costly for for firm owners to, you know, make those decisions and how best to utilize their technology resources and all their other resources too. So, you know, working together is also, and and that's a lot of, you know, Chris, you had mentioned earlier about the collaboration. I mean, that's what I see when our when our firm small firm owners get together.
Bob Doyle:There is there is not not no competition there because there's plenty of work for everybody. They're all there to build relationships and to learn from each other. And Absolutely. And for us to hopefully be able to create that that avenue, that venue for, others to learn from each other. I'll you know, for us to certainly educate and but also for them to learn from each other is really key for us.
Chris Picciurro, CPA:I couldn't agree more. I think when we're you know, I wonder before I forget because I was making some notes talking about, like, you don't have to be a math wizard to become a a CPA or tax professional. Honestly, if you if you truly enjoyed tenth grade algebra, that's the then you will do phenomenally in this profession because it's all about balancing transactions like debits and credits. And and, and once you guys, that's the way the, the big, the, the base of accounting principles. You don't have to be good at calculus to be a great CPA, just algebra, tenth grade algebra.
Chris Picciurro, CPA:That's it. If you like it, if you like that balance, then you could really do have fun in this profession. So what I would do is I'd go recruit every guy, every guy and girl that got a a a or higher in tenth grade algebra to be in a future CPA. It's a
Bob Doyle:good idea. I'll sit outside of schools, high school algebra classes. Hey. Here here's our brochure about what accounting is and how to become CPA.
Chris Picciurro, CPA:Well, don't let John do it last time. He he's gotten asked to leave a bunch of tenth grade. I bet you're sitting outside a bunch of high schools, and so, you know, we
John Tripolsky:You know, that was only when I
Chris Picciurro, CPA:was in the office. Issues with
John Tripolsky:that. Whatever.
Chris Picciurro, CPA:Anyway, you
John Tripolsky:pulled that story from what It's only one Google you found that on. But
Chris Picciurro, CPA:And, you know, I would say the cool thing about being is we do a lot of practice consulting. And like I said, I I always tell small firm practitioners, it's it's way easier to turn around a a motorcycle than an 18 wheeler. You can be nimble. So Mhmm. I wanna talk about kind of the different challenges big firms and small firms face from from Bob's perspective.
Chris Picciurro, CPA:But, you know, we you hear as as a tax professional or or accounting professional, niches equal riches all the time. Right? And and you and maybe they're but I I kinda take a broader view. Like, yes, we have our niche, but I feel like niche or a segment. So if you love living in Calcasta, Michigan so I'm sure someone's going to listen to this.
Chris Picciurro, CPA:There's probably one or two, three small firm practitioners there. You can have an amazing lifestyle. Your segment, you don't have to know. It could just be business owners in your county and what are some of the of the trends in that county. So get involved with the economic development council in that county.
Chris Picciurro, CPA:Get involved. Like, it just because our real our niche is real estate. We help investors all over the country. That's just our passion. That's what we love doing.
Chris Picciurro, CPA:However, just it doesn't have to be in a certain industry. In other words, it could be a segment. And maybe you maybe you. You know, work at, you know, have an office where there's a major manufacturing facility and, you know, maybe one of the big three is there and, hey, that's okay. There's a lot of tax prep, but maybe you start getting into financial advising tax planning.
Chris Picciurro, CPA:You really dive into their their four zero one ks plan, their retirement benefits, what their needs are. You you could just, you know, lean into any of those things as long but you you want to make sure it's something you have a passion for, obviously. But a lot of people, like you mentioned, Bob, love their community. And and especially, you know, quite frankly, if you're in a community that that is very affordable, you can make a you could live extremely comfortably, have an amazing balance of life, and be a pillar of that community, really. And that's that could that's a very rewarding, position to be in.
Bob Doyle:Yeah. I mean, you drive through any any small town in well, of course, the medium and large towns too, but you'll always see a door with CPA on it. Mhmm. And in any town, they're always the most trusted and respected profession in that town. You know, they're typically they're asked to join a board, and they're always asked to be the treasurer.
Bob Doyle:A lot times, some CPAs say, I'm not gonna be the treasurer.
Chris Picciurro, CPA:Right.
Bob Doyle:Well, I would love to join your board, but I'm not gonna be the treasurer. And so so, yeah, I mean, I there is great opportunity. And whether you're in, you know, multi where where we are and just outside of Detroit, Michigan and a major metropolitan area too, but not far from here. It can be pretty rural. Mhmm.
Bob Doyle:And it's it's great opportunity anywhere. And whether it's that niche where you're specifically focused in a certain category or a little bit more broad, business, manufacturing, there's tons of small, you know, tier two, tier three manufacturers all throughout Michigan. I mean, those are all great opportunities to serve clients. And and and and, you know, kinda going back to what we started with, there's a lot that are looking to retire. They built these wonderful practices, and there is opportunity for, for acquisition for sure.
Bob Doyle:You know, we've been seeing quite a bit of that. But, you know, even the smaller firms, know, and that's hopefully I guess I would I would put this out here out there is succession planning is super important, and even even early. Like, if you're not gonna retire for twenty years, you need to start thinking about succession planning. Who is the next generation of of who is gonna take over your business? Do you wanna bring on a partner?
Bob Doyle:Do you wanna how do you wanna best form your company, your firm, for that next generational leadership so it's there?
Chris Picciurro, CPA:Abs and the smaller your practice is, the more important that succession planning is. You know, it's it's almost like people in the mortgage company business say, you know, there's a it's easier to get a mortgage on an $800,000 property than an $80,000 property. Right? So it's easier to find a succession plan for a larger practice. So I I actually met my business partner through the Michigan Association of CPAs over ten years ago, and he's ten years younger than me.
Chris Picciurro, CPA:And it's been you know, we're good yin and yang. There you go. And it and it worked. I would have never met him. And this isn't just a commercial for the small firm practitioners conference.
Chris Picciurro, CPA:I would have never met him if it weren't for that small firm conference. And so if you are listening to this, first of all, thank of you. Thank you. If you're not listening to this, you're not listening to me telling complaining that you're not listening. So I'm just gonna move on from that.
Chris Picciurro, CPA:But I know consider yo. There aren't many association state associations that offer, if any, maybe one other, a small firm practitioners conference. The biggest challenge for small firm practitioners isn't preparing a schedule c and and and wash sale rules. It's operating your business. There's two completely different skill sets.
Chris Picciurro, CPA:As you you you wear a hat of an a firm owner and you wear a hat of of a practitioner, a tax practitioner, and they're different. And when you first start, you got to wear both them. So for that, those those type of conferences are critical in establishing those relationships and finding your little group of people they can bounce ideas off of and learn. Like you said, Bob, I mean, you could you could ace the CPA exam and you have no idea what technology stack to develop. You have no idea what what your needs are for CRM, tax software, all this stuff.
Chris Picciurro, CPA:And those type of conferences and opportunities, yes, they're expensive. They can be expensive. I think yours is reasonably priced, but I'm just saying from a
Bob Doyle:try to keep our
Chris Picciurro, CPA:reason. Travel. Pardon?
Bob Doyle:We try to keep ours reasonable.
Chris Picciurro, CPA:It's very reasonable. So, yeah, even if you don't live in Michigan, consider checking out this conference and it but you can't, it's one of those things you can't afford not to do it. It's like a toothache. Like, my wife had a toothache last week. It's like, look, it's going to cost money but if you don't, she's in dire pain.
Chris Picciurro, CPA:You know, she's got to go it's going to cost you one way or another. So I think that that for small firms, like you said, succession planning is super important because it's going to you know, you you've got to and and think about designing your firm based on processes running it, not people. If you're a one woman or one man band, because we're we're unreliable. Humans are unreliable. Like, we could have one of us could have gotten sick and gotten the flu or something today.
Chris Picciurro, CPA:Sure. Showed up. Bob, I wanna I wanna ask you about because, I mean, I really don't work with big firms very often. What are some of the differences in in big firms or small firms kinda needs? And and when I say needs, it's challenges, I guess, I should say, as a as a firm.
Chris Picciurro, CPA:And then what are some of the bigger differences?
Bob Doyle:Yeah. Well, I I think, well, challenges in in some way. I mean, I, you know, I have the chance to, meet with, you know, office managing partners of of the big firms, of, you know, the big four, if you will. But even, you know, once you get up to the top 20 or so, they all have offices. Most of them all have offices here in Michigan.
Bob Doyle:You know, talent is certainly one of them. You know, ensuring that they they, hire and, and retain retain talent is certainly key. And then even even trying to engage them in, in learning, you know, that has been very challenging for them since COVID. And I don't want this to turn into a return the off return to the office discussion or argument. But, but, actually, one thing we're hearing is the young professionals that are coming out of college now actually wanna come to the office.
Bob Doyle:They wanna they wanna work in in an office. They wanna be around people. And one of the reasons why is they all graduate from high school during COVID, and it and it wasn't fun.
Chris Picciurro, CPA:Right.
Bob Doyle:And so and they started college, you know, remotely, and they're sick of it. And they want I mean, okay. Maybe not five days a week, but they'll come in three or four, and you don't have to feed them every day either. Like, like a lot. You know?
Bob Doyle:Hey. We'll serve you lunch if you come in the office. So so that, you know, I I think but but at the same time, you know, they're still struggling with getting even, you know, managers who who need to have the interaction with young people and to train them and to help learn from it. So that's one of the when I talk with younger professionals, I tell them, know, what a good way to advance in your career? Go to the office.
Bob Doyle:You know? Go be around people. Go learn. And and again, I understand, hey, if you wanna work remote a few days a week, that's great. And so I I think that's a challenge.
Bob Doyle:But but smaller firms typically have that, you know, have that great culture who, yeah, they they wanna come into the office, you know, four or five days a week because they love the interaction with each other. They learn from each other. That's how they best work, but they're also very flexible. You know, you got, hey. Your kid has a has something at school in the middle of the day.
Bob Doyle:Go. Go do it. I don't I don't want you to miss that stuff. You know? That's that great culture that, frankly, maybe sometimes big firms may not have that.
Bob Doyle:You know? And I and I think the the I would say prob and and certainly, you know, thinking certainly, you know, thinking about I talk a lot about advocacy related, you know, things impacting the profession, policies, and things like that in particular, you know, and then, you know, licensing and things like that. So so, yeah, those are all all thing in. And but but I think the biggest thing is talent and ensuring that they're doing what's right for for their staff. And knowing that, you know, the hate to say that the turnover rate is is pretty high in those firms.
Bob Doyle:It's almost expected. And what I look at is when I talk to large firms, I know that a lot of those younger professionals in that room aren't going to be there in a few years. So where are they going to end up? Are they going to end up at a smaller firm? Are they going to end up in corporate?
Bob Doyle:Are they gonna end up, you know, going out, starting their own firm? We wanna make sure we, as a state association, are there to support them and help them.
Chris Picciurro, CPA:Mhmm. Mhmm. I yeah. That that's really good insight because, again, I don't really just don't have a lot of interaction with them. If you if you had to since, you know, sports wagering is legal in Michigan and in Tennessee as we talk about this in most of these states.
Chris Picciurro, CPA:If you had to put a futures bet on a couple things related to our industry, like, this was gonna be around. This might be gone. Oh, I guess I'm asking you to break out your crystal ball. Where do you where does this go? You know, if you're advising I know you're you're a dad.
Chris Picciurro, CPA:You're advising, like, is is anyone. Right? I mean and, actually, the people at the end, kind of the six let's say they've got five, six, seven years more left to that they wanna retire. They're at the biggest risk in in some ways, like you said, the transition planning and exit planning. But what do you see the future looks like in the next, let's say, three to five years?
Chris Picciurro, CPA:Because I think farther than that, it's hard to, you know, who to it's hard to imagine in our end. I think
Bob Doyle:well, first of all, I would tell, any student to go into a county. It's a great base. Take you anywhere. Get your CPA license. Once you get that, you'll always have it.
Bob Doyle:Those three letters will always be after your name. And that is what can help pave the way for opportunity because, you know, when you've we've seen over the history that in times of, uncertainty or instability is when interest in the profession actually increases. And so, actually, we're starting to see that a little bit. This past this past school year, there was an increase in the number of accounting undergraduate students across the country. You know, it had been going down since since before COVID, and we're starting to see uptick a little bit.
Bob Doyle:It's not as high as it was back in, like, 2018, '20 '19. But Mhmm. Hopefully, some of this that we're that we're doing is starting to work. And I would say just and keep your keep your ears and eyes open to opportunity. I mean, if if you do, you know, go in and you graduate and go in and work for a large firm, that's great.
Bob Doyle:I mean, you can work there and become partner and work there for thirty plus years, but you could also realize, you know what? Maybe that's not necessary for me. I wanna go work for a smaller firm, and I wanna, you know, really have greater impact on my community and and and have a great work life balance in that. I mean, keep that keep that open because you could be there in after three, you know, three to five years of experience. I do see, you know, the the we could do a whole podcast about private equity and and and the, you know, large firms getting bigger, and that middle sized firm is getting smaller.
Bob Doyle:And so but the the the the smaller practitioners, the community based firms, as I like to call them, they're gonna continue to be more and more important because because of the kind of the way that the profession is evolving with these firms, you know, getting bigger and bigger. And then finally, the you know, if if someone says, oh, AI is gonna take all the accounts jobs. I'm I'm so sick of hearing that because it's not. It it never will. AI is a tool.
Bob Doyle:Just AI has been around for forty plus years, you know, just like the first Excel spreadsheet or Lotus one, two, three. Remember that? And I don't remember that.
Chris Picciurro, CPA:I'm nightmare. No. I'm older than you got. I'm I have nightmares about
John Tripolsky:I remember Lotus Notes very vividly.
Bob Doyle:Lotus Notes. Yeah.
John Tripolsky:Believe it or not.
Bob Doyle:So, the tools change and yeah. And and so I I heard this, this quote. It's it's been said a couple times. I'm I apologize. I'm not sure who to attribute it to, but I said the accountants or AI is not going to take accountants jobs.
Bob Doyle:It's accountants who embrace AI who are gonna take the jobs of accountants who don't. So, you know, what can we do to help better support? Because it it is you know, it's a lot. It can be a lot of money, a lot of investment. How do how do we best utilize these tools?
Chris Picciurro, CPA:I think our buddy and I don't know if he came up with that or but John Higgins, who is a friend of the MICPA, was on this Oh, yeah. On this podcast.
Bob Doyle:John probably said that. Maybe it was John who was the first one to say that.
Chris Picciurro, CPA:We'll give him credits, but but I don't know if he was the first one. But, yeah, he definitely you know, we did an a, future you know, we were talking about AI in in our profession with him, and he's he's a great resource. And, but, yeah, I agree. It's it's a tool just like the Internet. I mean and I really, really like the term I wrote down, community based CPA.
Chris Picciurro, CPA:You know, that that's it's because that's what it is. If if in in that could be a segment in itself. Instead of saying, I'm a, you know, I'm I'm a small per time or I'm
Bob Doyle:a on my own. Like, you're serving a community. Well, you're on our small practitioners resource member resource group, and we've actually workshopped that term because I was because I I think we should embrace the the name small firm, but you are really a because a lot of times, like, well, I don't I don't consider myself a small firm. But that's why we also use the term small firm mighty impact because you have you may yeah. You might be a small firm, but you have a mighty impact on your community, your clients, your your family, yourself, and and that cannot go unnoticed for sure.
Chris Picciurro, CPA:No. This that is that's true. And I think that this is, you know, this is this is these are just things that people have to understand in in really running you know, getting to know how to run your practice is so important and looking at what's going on out there. So lot of times, especially those community practitioners, they just get in there in in a little queue, not necessarily a real queue, but just a whole kind of a very shortsighted and because they're so involved in all the things that they're doing for their clients. They're not working on their business at all and and seeing what's going on out there.
Chris Picciurro, CPA:So yeah. But, yeah, that's that's I agree. And it's really neat to see to hear about some, you know, some of the challenges of the big firms. There's just so many opportunities. The pathways now for CPAs go, again, go well beyond just a CPA firm.
Chris Picciurro, CPA:There's there's industry. There's govern you know, government where government work, I guess, I should say, municipal work. And, you know, we I've we've we've been fortunate to meet people in all different walks of life and doing different types of work as far as, like, forensic stuff. And I don't know. It's just and tax laws are always changing.
Chris Picciurro, CPA:Right? So you'll always have some some opportunities.
Bob Doyle:Always have a job. Yep. Always have a job for sure.
Chris Picciurro, CPA:And, be learning how to be sticky with the clients that you want is a is a art form. But once you get it, it's it could be really, really powerful. So
Bob Doyle:Yeah. For
John Tripolsky:sure. I'm glad we had this conversation about the coolest profession around.
Chris Picciurro, CPA:Yes. Think it's
John Tripolsky:a good good little topic to close on. But, honestly, Bobby, I obviously don't wanna cut you guys off because we could talk on this a bunch, but, I'm sure you guys got places to go. I'm sure people that are listening to this are like, alright. I'm here. I learned.
John Tripolsky:I met somebody. I I'm motivated now, and now I want my CPE. So when you when you do do that, obviously, through your mark, the link is in the show notes. Check that out. Bob, thanks for joining us, man.
John Tripolsky:This was great conversation.
Bob Doyle:It's been a pleasure, John, Chris. Always enjoy talking with you guys. I'm looking forward to seeing you at our small firm practitioners conference, which is at Treetops Resort in Gaylord, Michigan, August Thirteenth And Fourteenth. We start a little in the afternoon of the twelfth, and maybe we'll play a little golf and a little pickleball while we're up there. Right?
John Tripolsky:Oh, boy. Here we go. Yes. Said it. I brought the hair jokes.
John Tripolsky:Bob brought the pickleball contest.
Chris Picciurro, CPA:We'll be ready.
John Tripolsky:If somebody Paddles. Somebody had to.
Chris Picciurro, CPA:We'll be ready with our paddles. And, yeah, absolutely. If you're you know, definitely, if you've been listening to this, follow Bob, and and he's always doing some cool stuff, showing a fun part of our profession. And, again, deeply consider checking that conference out. It's in a gorgeous port part of Michigan.
Chris Picciurro, CPA:Actually, we took, and then I promise, our our best friends down here are from the South, Alabama and Georgia, and they've always wanted to go to Michigan. So we did a weekend trip to they we've done a Mackinac Island in Traverse City, and they're like, we didn't know all this. Like, We went in September, and it was just an amazing weather weekend, the weekend after Labor Day. Thank goodness last year. I'm like, yeah.
Chris Picciurro, CPA:It is you're not gonna find a better place to to go in the summertime.
Bob Doyle:I was just on Macan Island last week for a conference. The Detroit regional chamber puts on annual Macron policy conference. So I was there to that's actually where I met with 10 legislators talking about our additional pathways bill, but it was it was beautiful. I took a run one morning. The sunset was just breathtaking.
Bob Doyle:Actually, I posted a picture of it on LinkedIn. So, yeah, anyone listening, please connect with me on LinkedIn. I that's I'm pretty active there, and, love to continue the conversation.
John Tripolsky:So it's good to have these conversations where I know, corny in the hallway of one of your events and chat out. So this this works out very well. But, yeah, anybody that's listening to this, think about this as we as we wrap this up. Getting your CPA designation is not like getting a driver's license. Right?
John Tripolsky:It's not a rite of passage you just get. Do it with intention, and hopefully things that Bob had discussed here with us a little bit kinda, you know, enlightens it a little bit for you.
John Tripolsky:It gives a little bit more, jazz, a little bit more power behind it. And, again, remember that CPA definition that he he gave us there. The coolest profession around. We'll see everybody back here again next time on the mister r Show.
Disclaimer:You've been listening to the Mr. R Show presented by the MRR Institute. For more content like this, be sure to check us out on YouTube for weekly expert tips, and don't forget to subscribe to this podcast to stay updated on the latest strategies for scaling and modernizing your tax practice. Looking for more? Contact us at mrr institute dot com for practice resources, coaching opportunities, and a peer to peer mastermind group. Thanks for joining us, and we'll see you next offering memorandum, and you should carefully examine the risk factors and other information contained in the memorandum. The content provided is for educational purposes only. We encourage you to seek personalized investment advice from your financial professional. For all tax and legal advice, please consult your CPA or attorney. Investment advisory services are offered through Cabin Advisors, a registered investment advisor. Securities are offered through Cabin Securities, a registered broker dealer.
